BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;
}Ben, list
Then, how, Ben, would you have advised Peter?
I agree with you that there is, at least on this list, unfortunately
little discussion relating Peirce's concepts/methods to concrete
examples, but in the biological world and in the artificial
intelligence world - there is a great deal of discussion. It just
seems that most people on this list are focused on pure philosophy
and are not interested in these other areas.
I personally don't feel that a Peircean analysis would add a thing
to the meaning/function of a Refugee-family imagized as the Holy
Family. To do so, would, as I've been trying to say, move the imagery
into remote intellectual abstraction. That's why I suggested a basic
analogy framework, but, locating the images within the politicial,
societal, economic background of each era/location/setting etc.
Edwina
On Fri 29/12/17 5:13 PM , Ben Novak [email protected] sent:
Dear List:
I am a long-time follower of the discussions on Peirce List, and am
most grateful for some of the discussions of Peirce's thought, which
makes me continue to read each entry. However, I have long been
wondering why there is so little discussion of relating Peirce's
concepts and methodologies to concrete examples, or other 20th and
even 21st century thinkers.
The current discussion of Peter Skagestad's simple, practical
question about a nativity scene in Trondheim, has been disappointing.
All he asked was the relevance of Peirce's semiotics to a presently
existing symbolic representation.
The general discussion that has ensued seems to confirm that even
the most frequent and seemingly most expert expositors of Peirce's
thought are stumped by Skagestad's simple example, with seemingly
little to offer in the way of helpful analysis to Skagestad's artist
sister.
Poor Peter Skagestad finally had to give up on Peirce, noting that
only " Gene's references to both Pope Francis and G.H. Mead strike
me as highly relevant to my question, and I will refer my sister to a
few quotes from Mead."
If ever there were an example of scholars unable to descend from
their ivory towers of abstraction to deal with real world examples,
this is a classic.
Respectfully submitted,
Ben Novak
Ben Novak5129 Taylor Drive, Ave Maria, FL 34142Telephone: (814)
808-5702
"All art is mortal, not merely the individual artifacts, but the
arts themselves. One day the last portrait of Rembrandt and the last
bar of Mozart will have ceased to be—though possibly a colored
canvas and a sheet of notes may remain—because the last eye and
the last ear accessible to their message will have gone." Oswald
Spengler
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 4:01 PM, Jerry Rhee wrote:
Auke, Peter, list,
Is not “Holy Family as present-day refugees from the Middle
East” image enough?
At least surprising enough for Google.
And ye tell me, friends, that there is to be no dispute about taste
and tasting?
But all life is a dispute about taste and tasting!
Taste: that is weight at the same time, and scales and weigher;
and alas for every living thing that would live without dispute
about weight and scales and weigher!
Best,
Jerry R
On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Auke van Breemen wrote:
Peter,
Did you provide an image of what you described in your original
question?
I have a somewhat unusual question. My sister is writing an Art
History thesis on nativity scenes and their contemporary relevance.
An example is one at a street mission in Trondheim, Norway, depicting
the Holy Family as present-day refugees from the Middle East. Now the
question is what, if anything, might semiotics have to say about such
depiction? The answer may be obvious, but it escapes me, at least for
the moment. Any suggestions?
--
Seems to me to be relevant for a semiotic art history analysis.
Without it, it is just idly speculation on a symbol somehow pointing
to an image that may or may not surprise us semiotically .
Best,
Auke van Breemen
Claudio, list:
I'll continue to disagree.
The point is - an analogy doesn't conclude that the 'refugees
nativity is 'just an other nativity'. One can certainly discuss the
meaning of Being a Refugee in multiple ways - that don't involve a
triadic Peircean semiotic approach.
I don't agree that symbols/language 'isolate or exclude us from the
world' - They symbolize the world, but, as Peirce pointed out, we can
yet examine the hard truth, the objective non-symbolic reality of the
world - over time.
I also don't agree that "The qualities of the world enter into
language after the language has organized its internal relations".
That's smacks of sociolinguistics. I think that the realities of the
world exist - as Peirce said - quite apart from what anyone thinks or
says about it..
And - my point of view is that Reality 'exists' [not in the sense of
Secondness but of Thirdness] - and I can no more escape its objective
nature than I can escape the alphabet of this computer.
My point is that a simple analogy of two or more images doesn't need
and indeed becomes unintelligible by a complex examination by
semiotics.
The images of these two sets can be examined without any notion of a
triadic process; ...indeed...we could end up implying far more into
these two images than actually objectively exist. We've seen this
already on this list, where one post made the nonsensical suggestion
that IF one does not feel compassion by looking at this Refugee
Nativity, THEN, one lacks the capacity for compassion within oneself.
Can such a conclusion be justified by a semiosic analysis? Another
interpretation could compare the 'holiness' of the Original Nativity
with..what...an equal holiness of the Refugee Nativity? The
isolation of these interpretations from objective reality can only
exist in the Seminar Room and becomes trite and trivial.
A basic analogy format would provide a far more realistic and less
overly-intellectualized view. What would I suggest as an analytic
method? Nothing to do with semiotics or even, semiology. I would
consider multiple nativity scenes from multiple sources over multiple
years and even centuries - and locate them, not merely within the
variables of style, but also content -- within the economic and
political realities of their era. That's all.
Edwina
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