Auke, list - Right - I was merely suggesting, exactly, that this is
a long debated issue. Therefore, the argument is whether these terms
are just synonyms [which seems to be The Rejected Argument] vs
whether they are placeholders. And as you note - expanded
placeholders.
Edwina
On Sat 23/05/20 1:51 PM , [email protected] sent:
Edwina, list,
That is a debated issue. Bergman did summarize the main positions:
Fitzgerald, Short and Zeman.
In my opinion the logical interpretant of the emotional, energetic,
logical sequence is a placeholder for the other triplet. Van Driel
was the first to write this, but without argumentation and alas in a
Dutch language dissertation. The energetic in my opinion must also be
looked at as a placeholder for the icon (mental interpretant) and
sinsign (the here and now of the icon) aspect respectively. i didn't
however find direct evidence for this.
Auke
Op 23 mei 2020 om 19:27 schreef Edwina Taborsky :
As a side note - there's an interesting paper, by Lucia
Santaella-Braga, on 'Methodeutics; the liveliest branch of
semiotics'. in Semiotica 124[-3/4]. 1999. p 377-395, in which, among
other things [she's reviewing a book by Liszka] she outlines the full
nature of the Interpretants, moving into an examination of 8.344-76,
where she rejects that the terms of ' immediate, dynamical and
logical/final are synonymous with 'emotional, energetic and logical.
See also 'Semiotica' 1996, 'Semiotics in times of maturity.
Semiotica 108 [1/2]; 129-155 where she discusses them in detail.
Edwina
On Sat 23/05/20 4:03 AM , "Helmut Raulien" [email protected] sent:
Jon, List, Peirce is not necessarily always right, is he? " For
evolution is nothing more nor less than the working out of a definite
end", is theism and speculation, isn´t it? One may also assume, that
evolution is continuous adaption without an end. And when he wrote "A
final cause may be conceived to operate without having been the
purpose of any mind", had he forgotten then, that he had claimed that
the universe has a mind? If it has, why should it pursue its own end?
I think doomsdayism is always theistic speculation. The big chill
too, like the big bang, is not scientifically proven. I think, that
evolution itself has a mind, though working quite slowly. A better
example for final cause I see in the needs of organisms, who pursue
an end to these needs. Or their DNA does it for them, which is a
memory of the mind of evolution of their species. Organisms who have
brains apply a third kind of causation, volitional or example
causation: They remember or anticipate something they want to get.
These three kinds of causation are related by analogy to the three
kinds of inference. Best, Helmut 23. Mai 2020 um 04:14 Uhr
"Jon Alan Schmidt"
wrote: Robert, List: Thanks for providing this creative answer to
some of my questions, which I have been pondering carefully. It
confirms that we have very different theories about semeiosis, and
apparently very different interpretations of Peirce's writings on
that subject. For one thing, he explicitly and repeatedly affirms
the reality of final causes, and even points to biological evolution
as a paradigmatic manifestation of them. CSP: Perhaps, since phrases
retain their sway over men's minds long after their meaning has
evaporated, it may be that some reader, even at this day, remains
imbued with the old notion that there are no final causes in nature;
in which case, natural selection, and every form of evolution, would
be false. For evolution is nothing more nor less than the working out
of a definite end. A final cause may be conceived to operate without
having been the purpose of any mind ... but that definite ends are
worked out none of us today any longer deny. Our eyes have been
opened; and the evidence is too overwhelming. (CP 1.204, 1902)
Notice that for Peirce final causes do not entail agency, theistic or
otherwise. He confirms this later in the same manuscript. CSP: It
is, as I was saying, a widespread error to think that a "final cause"
is necessarily a purpose. A purpose is merely that form of final cause
which is most familiar to our experience. (CP 1.211) However, I will
not belabor that point any further. Instead, for comparison I will
try to spell out my own semeiotic analysis of my previous post,
hopefully sometime this weekend. Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe,
Kansas, USA Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran
Laymanwww.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [1] -
twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [2]On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:58 AM robert
marty < [email protected] > wrote:Jon Alan, List
I'd rather we stay on the list. I have clues that suggest that
people are interested; if some are embarrassed they have no
obligation ...
Today I will answer your questions using another rhetorical means,
the parable ...
"A parable is a succinct, didactic [3] story, in prose [4] or
verse [5], that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or
principles" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable [6] ) ...
I assure you, it will be prose ...
On 05/20/20 at a certain time, in the mind of a person living in
Olathe, Kansas,USA, (the sender), a person who has well-established
and known ideas from the list on the final causes, effective causes,
determinations, ... a subjective theory labelled "JAS" (Od) is
formed the idea of addressing questions to a member of the list in
particular and also to the list (the receiver, the receivers)… he
imagines a series of questions (Oi) that are necessarily determined
by his theory which they carry "in hollow" the mark ... he writes
them and publishes them (S) … its main receiver (his first name
is an index perceived first) perceives this text ... in the course of
his reading his mind is inhabited by more or less blurred mnemonic
reminders of a large number of objects of previous discussions, more
or less interconnected, mixed - as with each of the messages he
received from the same sender - with this following information
(index) which never ceased to amaze him: " Professional Engineer,
Philosopher Amateur, Lutheran Layman". All this has formed in his
mind a kind of "interpretation guide" from which he apprehends the
content of the messages received from this sender, a set to which is
added the one to which I answer by the parable - under construction
before my eyes and soon under yours, i e of all those who will
perceive it (read it). This receiver has therefore, with more or less
accuracy, conceptualized this set. He finds himself obliged, simply to
have read this injunctive message, in which the sender has somehow "
printed his mark", to modify or not his uncertain conceptualization
in which dominates the idea of "predestination" that his studies and
readings have allowed him to associate with Lutheranism (Calvinism
too) and in general protestantism: It's (If) … in immediate
reaction in his mind is recalled his own subjective theory which
contains his long-held opinions on these issues (Ie). He acquired
them early by reading Jacques Monod's 1965 Nobel Prize book ,"
Hasard and Necessity," later reinforced by reading René Thom's book,
Medall Field of Mathematics (1958), entitled " Structural Stability
and Morphogenesis, W. A. Benjamin, (1972) ". After a quick
confrontation between the two theories for a possible change in the
way he considers the questions of the final causes and the efficient
causes, he decides not to modify one iota and to communicate this
decision to the person who asked it and to the list (Iex) in the
explicit form that here: "In his world of signs, determinations are
efficient causes and there is no need to incorporate final causes
that his own subjective theory and underlying atheism exclude.".
Best,
Robert (the receiver)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_and_Necessity [7] _ _ _ _ _ _
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[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable
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