In a message dated 6/21/2004 10:30:20 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
We were briefly discussing the question of whether the Chechens sought to ethnically cleanse Chechnya of Russians et. al. at the beginning of the 90s.
This discussion came about because Chris Doss wrote:
"they could leave on foot, like the 35,000 Russians, Ukrainians, Jews,
Armenians and Greeks did who were ethnically cleansed in the early 90s."

      However, this isn't what happened. I pointed out that, for example, the Russian bombing of Grozny in the first Chechen war in the mid-1990s caused great misery for the Russian population of Grozny and killed quite a few of them. The Russian chauvinist bourgeoisie was willing to kill Russian workers for the sake of its imperialist crusade against Chechnya.
 
Reply
 
We live in the most imperial of all imperial states and the word imperialism does not in any way frighten me or send me into an orgy of back flogging over concepts of self determination.
 
Russia's imperial ambition is inexplicable tied to its history of emergence as a multinational state dating back to the 13th Century if memory serves me correct. Imperial has a meaning and imperialism has existed as a form that manifest the relentless advance and evolution of means of production and their export to less developed areas of the world.  That is to say that those who become conquered in history as a general rule lack the ability to defeat the conquerors of what is the same lack the infrastructure development that allows one to arm themselves and achieve an equilibrium, that prevents economic subjugation.
 
Screaming "imperial subjugation" is fine and dandy and gets one in trouble in today's world without an economic analysis of the world and the various centers of gravity. Center of gravity means economic relations with the property relations within.
 
No one likes bombs and to be bombed. Bombs upset people especially when ones loved one has been killed . . . dead . . . funeral arrangements and everything else.
 
On Pen-L are we not at least challenged to discern the profound economic relations that are the impulse for a probable future? What are the economic enters of gravity that are going to compel what was the autonomous region of the old USSR called Chechnya, to descend into? If it is not Russia and the Russian State as an economic center of gravity then what are we talking about?
 
Self determination and political ideology?
 
What about eating, secular schooling, medical care, pensions, higher education, public transportation. Theater, music, literature . . . life love and the pursuit of happiness? These are profound questions that cannot be detached from the real world division of labor or specialization that gives a country and people a chance to achieve ascendency over the level of barbarism.
 
What is the direction of the economic logic that is so-called Chechnya, self determination?
 
I have no love affair with Putin or the Putin administration but one must at least be mature enough to understand real world politics and the economic and perceived national and state interest that drives leaders.
 
One can of course cry crocodile tears over the people of Chechnya, but the real question is were they better off fifteen years ago compared to today?
 
The answer is a missed bag depending upon the real individual in Chechnya, and not ones ideal about democracy.
 
Chechnya, as an independent state demands the question independent of what and who and what geopolitical forces in today's world.
 
In as much as this thread is called "Putin" - by choice, is not the question what is Putin's vision, economic and social policy toward Chechnya?
 
This begs another question or series of questions. Who is Putin the man and what is his history that allowed him to rise to the head of a very powerful state structure?
 
Putin has more legitimacy than Bush Jr., and most Presidents elected in the American Union for the past century. I am not a cheerleader for Putin but political.
 
There are exactly what . . . 500,000 people of Chechnya. Look there are about 40 million African Americans and the same count on Mexicans.
 
I care about the little man and "the one" . . .  but large states and economic centers of gravity define history and all the crocodile tears about who got hurt does not alter history. Yes, we are concerned about the individual.
 
What is the economic logic that gives us a framework of probable future projections?
 
What are the geopolitical circumstances that makes oil in Chechnya important and what forces are at play?
 
Crying over self determination might clam the bleeding heart but in the real world of politics . . . where someone must elected you or a consensus appoint your (which means being elected) the world is more real.
 
Stating that the Russian are bad and imperial is a no brainier in the sense that the Russian people inherited the state and imperial prerogative. Are the Russians bad is a question worthy of examination because "bad" is in relationship to exactly what?
 
If the relationship is in your head then one is compelled to ask who are you and who elected you to anything to have such profound insight into political and economic relationships in the first place?
 
Now what?
 
Yeas  . . . I want everyone to be free and dream of peace, c=democracry and communism.
 
Every freaking morning I wake up to a real world that does not operate on the basis of something in my head.
 
 
Melvin P.
 
 

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