David B. Shemano wrote: > you can analyze ideology as a grid with personal liberty on one axis and > economic liberty on an other axis, in which case certain extremes are in > different quadrants, but would not be extreme opposites of each other.
In VERY LARGE TYPE, Shane says: > Marxists like me and Libertarians like you are in the same personal > liberty/economic liberty quadrant. But I think we disagree rather strongly > about what we mean by (maybe) personal liberty and (certainly) economic > liberty. And we certainly disagree strongly about what is needed to make > both real for everyone. Are we "extreme opposites of each other" > ideologically? that definitional issue points up a major problem with the standard two-dimensional political map pushed by the money libertarians (that David refers to). In addition, there's a third dimension. In an earlier missive, I posited a 3-D map (though of course a 4th dimension might exist): 1. the classic left vs. right dimension. Following the classic definition, the "left" backs and defends the working class and the poor and the "right" roots for and champions the rich and powerful.... 2. centralism vs. decentralism of economic and political organization... 3. traditionalism vs. liberalism on issues of culture. Traditionalists defend the currently societal dominant groups and norms of ethnicity, religion, and gender... David seems to be equating "personal liberty" with what I called "liberalism" in axis 3 (in opposition to traditionalism). On the other hand, "economic liberty" seems the same as an extreme version of decentralism on axis 2: those who have money can do whatever they want. (I'd bet that David would add a clause such as "subject to the laws protecting individual property," but that doesn't change much.) He forgets issues concerning axis 1, e.g., the inequality of money power that means that some people get more economic liberty than others. In fact, some people have so much economic liberty that they can buy control over others' lives, reducing their economic -- and even personal -- liberty. BTW, why is it that money libertarians like the word "liberty" while most other people like the word "freedom"? Most people seem to use the two words interchangeably. -- Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante. _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
