On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jim Devine <[email protected]> wrote: > me: >>> If my distinguishing between Ahmedinijad and Chávez is merely a matter >>> of my using an ideological axe, does that say that the two regimes are >>> substantially the same? > > Robert Naiman: >> You're being deceitful, and you know it. < > > Asking a question is "deceitful"? Questions about the real world do > not imply unique answers. In any event, asking a question is better > than being insulting. (And insulting me simply encourages me to ask > sly questions like the one I did -- because it undermines my respect > for the insulter.)
I note that you edited out why I thought you were being deceitful. It was, of course, not because you asked a question. It was because you asked a rhetorical question suggesting that I think that "the two regimes are substantially the same," when I already made clear in previous discussion that the views that you want to attribute to me are not my views. > In any event, Robert's response makes it clearer how our approaches > differ from each other. > >> You just refuse to concede the >> point that with respect to the provision of social services to the >> majority, they could have something in common. > > Robert seems to be claiming to know my thoughts better than I do, so > that he knows what "I refuse to concede" more than I. > > Among other things, I _never_ denied the fact that Ahmedinijad and > Chávez could have "something in common." It's like a Venn diagram: > there's a Ahmedinijad set and a Chávez set and they overlap. I simply > think that the non-overlap part of the picture is quite important and > should not be ignored -- unless we lower our standards and accept a > merely partial story. And this non-overlap part includes the _form and > methods_ of the provision of social services, which cannot be > artificially separated from the social services themselves. > > That is, "provision of social services" can cover a multitude of sins > (and good stuff too). Is it Mayor Daley #1, Mayor Daley #2, Hugo > Chávez, or some other alternative? The medieval lords and Church > delivered social services to the peasants, but that was quite > different from an authoritarian/paternalistic welfare state, a > political patronage machine, a rational/bureaucratic welfare state, or > a more participatory/democratic system (going from right to left). > > In general, there's a big difference between top-down (paternalistic, > bureaucratic, and/or theocratic) provision of social services and a > more bottom-up (participatory, democratic) provision of social > services. That was my point (or my "axe"). To make the contrast > extreme (and more abstract), social services delivered at the point of > a gun by theocratic thugs [*] are different from those voted on and > partially controlled by their beneficiaries.Note that in the first > case, the thugs delivering the services are likely to deliver a chunk > of them to themselves. In the second case, the thugs are under popular > control. > >> You're just exhibiting >> a stubborn attachment to your own previously expressed position. > > I haven't noticed Robert changing his position, either. But I don't > really care whether he changes his position or not. I aim my > e-missives on pen-l not just at the person I'm responding to but also > at the "third persons" who read them. They might learn something or > have something to contribute. > > Because I am talking to third persons, I try not to use personal > pronouns to refer to the person I'm discussing with. I can't say that > I'm totally successful. By not using personal pronouns, I'm also > trying to avoid personal insults: I address ideas, facts, logic, etc. > instead. > -- > Jim Devine / It's time to Occupy the New Year! > > [*] As far as I know, I am not describing the Iranian method of > distributing social services here. As noted, I am not an expert on > what's happening inside Iran. > _______________________________________________ > pen-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l -- Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org [email protected] _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
