On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]> wrote: > The argument below seems to me to ignore Luxemburg's _second_ alternative: > barbarism. That is, it assumes that because a social order _must_ chose Q in > order to survive it _will_ change Q. In the past particular 'cultures' have > 'chosen' death rather than social change. And capitalism, with its anarchic > production, does not seem immune to that alternative. During WW 2 even a > totalitarian state such as Germany could not (at least in Hamburg) achieve > full mobilization for war production until allied bombers conveniently blew > up most places of employment _except_ the industrial plants. I agree that > renewable energy is urgent (necessary), and I accept your assurance that it > is technically possible, but it does not follow that it _will_ be adopted. > Consider the model of the individual who goes on smoking even after > developing emphysema, and societies change more slowly than do individuals. > I hope that your are right and I am wrong. > > Carrol
I think Hans (and me as well ) are talking about the *alternatives* to barbarism. Why spend time on that alternative. It is what we are trying to avoid. I was talking to a leading expert on environmental topics, and mentioned I thought we still had a 1 in 5 chance of avoiding ending up with a human die-off and reversion to pre-industrial technology. He told me that my view was more optimistic held by anyone who knew what they are doing on this issue. I also said that ultimately it is not a prediction but a collective choice. > > Hans ehrbar writes: > > Renewable energy is only one piece in this puzzle, but it is urgent because > of global warming and ocean acidification. > The question what the obstacles are for renewable energy and how energy can > be stored etc must be solved by every social organization of production, > whether socialist or capitalist. > It is not a trivial question. The view is widely held in the US that a > complete switch to renewable energy is impossible, while Europe is making > great strides to do exactly that. It is important to understand the true > limits of renewable energy. > > In other words, I don't think we are glossing over the question of political > power if we discuss this. > > Hans > > > _______________________________________________ > pen-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l -- Facebook: Gar Lipow Twitter: GarLipow Solving the Climate Crisis web page: SolvingTheClimateCrisis.com Grist Blog: http://grist.org/author/gar-lipow/ Online technical reference: http://www.nohairshirts.com _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
