On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 12:18 PM, John Vertegaal <[email protected]> wrote:

> It seems to me that Julio takes it for granted that economics can be done
> without invoking a unit of account, (i.e.) in the classical sense of money
> being just a veil. His entire argument doesn't hold if the mapping of "→"
> between the two states of y occurs in terms of a unit of account and not in
> terms of physicalities. For now the principles involved concern not
> mathematical but bookkeeping ones; during which time the physicality of the
> product could be said to have entered a state of suspended animation and
> "dead" to the world that matters. None of this of course follows from the
> opening line of Marx's Grundrisse, rendering strictly a supply-side
> argument.

No.  Money is not a veil.  It is an objective social form: a bond.
But its material content is, indeed, a "physicality."  If you are
trying to pin down this material content, then indeed it all boils
down to "physicalities."  In the f: y \rightarrow y framework, money
as a social form is captured by y and its changes over time and space
by f.

I don't see the point of counter-posing math and bookkeeping.  And I
disagree strongly with the idea that when money mediates "the
physicality of the product could be said to have entered a state of
suspended animation and "dead" to the world that matters."

That's like saying that when people learn something, the physicality
of the brain "could be said to have entered a state of suspended
animation and "dead" to the world that matters," namely the
psychological experience of learning.

I don't think so.  The brain (actually the whole body) physically
changes when we "learn" something, and we experience these physical
changes as a psychological phenomenon called "learning."  The physical
proportions (use values) are not slushing around in a world separate
from the movement of social forms (values).  They constitute one and
the same flow of real social life.  It just happens that this flow has
different aspects that you can isolate by abstraction.

If you believe that value notions stand on their own, separate and
apart, rather than -- as I argue -- being social forms "overlaid" on a
material content (ultimately, the productive forces of labor), then
how come the social forms of value and surplus value dictate the
priorities of production, of physical supplies, in a capitalist
society?  This is not different from the argument against Cartesian
dualism.  If our minds stand apart from our physical bodies (rather
than being the psychological forms through which we experience our
bodies and the world around them), then how come our goals drive our
actions?  And how come sensory experience and reflection on it changes
our bodies and minds?  If the body can't touch the mind, then how can
the mind touch the body?
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