> Well, you should have said truth can't exist without
> minds. Truth is a property of propositions or
> sentences. Only sentences or propositions are true or
> false.

So you were arguing against what I should have said? That's a pretty weak excuse for not reading what I write with care.

I mentioned "truth" only in response to you. But it doesn't matter, since I disagree that the idea that truth is only a property of propositions or sentence. There is a reality independent of our perceptions of it (I believe). "Truth" would involve a correspondence between that reality and our perceptions. That might be called "empirical truth," which is just as relevant as "logical truth." Of course, empirical truth would be a matter of multiple degrees (i.e., quite complex) rather than a simple yes/no variable.

> _You_ define propositions as mental states. That is a
> dumb view.

Really? definitions can be "dumb"? Definitions are not things that are handed down from Olympus by Zeus, or ideal forms on the cave wall that we glimpse only fleetingly, so that those who don't see the true definitions are unfit to be philosopher-kings or dumb.

Definitions are usually _conventions_, created by people, and often differ between groups, cultures, and languages. (This is just as with the definition of "planet". There are shades of gray and the convention helps us draw the line.) One group often thinks that the definitions used by another group are "dumb." But that's just petty squabbling, narrow-minded group-think, or gross elitism.

When you initially misunderstood my reply to DD, I was very clear  that by "proposition" I was referring to a mental state.

Lawyers and philosophers win arguments by labeling others' opinions as "dumb"? Is this common?

> Since you are speaking frankly, I will too.
> No one thinks that propositions are mental states.

what is this group of people to whom you refer? In which group of people is it that "no one" thinks "propositions" are mental states? Is this a majority of US citizens? world residents? sentient beings?

> That's silly. Propositions are the contents of some
> mental states. ...
 
that's your definition of what YOU and your fellow-thinkers (whoever they are) mean by "propositions." Just as with my definition, it's a matter of convention.
 
> Your insistence that realism about propositions or
> numbers is idealism is puzzling, but you are entitled
> to stipulate whatever definitions you want for terms...
that's right. Definitions are conventional.
 
By the way, I didn't say that realism about numbers was idealism. (I haven't the slightest idea where that came from.) As I noted at the start of this thread, I see numbers as existing in reality. (Some mathematical laws do, too.)
 
JD

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