James Devine wrote:
... I didn't say that "truth" doesn't exist without minds. I said that
"understandings of truth" (i.e., propositions) don't exist without minds, while of
course propositions are often false....
Shane Mage writes:
This doesn't make any sense to me. In their usual sense, "truth"
and "falsity" are characteristics of *propositions*, and of nothing else.
Nor do propositions require minds to exist (though they do
require minds to come into existence). That this proposition is true
can be easily understood by imagining that the universe, without
changing in any other way, became completely mindless. The
propositions given material form in this e-mail would by definition
continue to exist, even though there would be no minds left to
appreciate their truth.
--------------------------------
To be repetitious, this response doesn't make sense to me. If there's no mind to
appreciate it, how could a proposition on paper or in an electronic archive be
anything but a bunch of ink on paper or a bunch of somewhat ordered electrons? Meaning
is subjective.
BTW, I looked up the conventional -- i.e., dictionary -- definition of the word
"proposition" in my handy-dandy WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY (2nd college edition)
and saw:
n: 1. the act of proposing
2. a) something proposed; proposal; plan
b) [Colloq.] an unethical or immoral proposal, specif. one of illicit sexual relations
in return for some gain
3. [Colloq.] a proposed deal, as in business
4. [Colloq.] a person, problem, undertaking, etc. being or to be dealt with
5. [Archaic] a setting forth; offering.
6. Logic: an expression in which the predicate affirms or denies something about the
subject
7. Math: a theorem that must be demonstrated or a problem that must be solved
8. Rhetoric: a subject to be discussed be discussed or a statement to be upheld.
vt: to make a proposition, esp. an improper one.
SYN: see PROPOSAL.
"propose" is defined as:
vt. 1. to put forth for consideration of acceptance
2. to purpose, plan, or intend.
3. to present as a toast in drinking
4. to nominate (someone) for membership, office, etc.
vi: 1. make a proposal, fomr or declare a purpose or design.
2, to offer marriage.
SYN: See INTEND.
To my mind, these definitions by and large indicate that a "proposal" is a subjective
thing. Further, it's part of a social, interpersonal, setting.
If someone wants to use a different definition, that's fine by me, but they should be
conscious that they are going against the general conventional meaning, so that they
should be very clear and open concerning their own definition.
Leftists need to learn how to talk to non-leftists, while academics need to learn how
to those who are outside of their specialties.
JD
