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Dibawah ini adalah text dari wawancara Margaret Warner dari PBS dengan Ramos
Horta akhir akhir ini. Silahkan di simak kalau belum sempat menonton TV soal
ini. PBS fresh from oven.
Donald Saluling
Portland.
MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta joins us now. He's been in the US this week
meeting with UN and World Bank officials and members of Congress. He returns
to the region tonight.
Welcome, sir. The Indonesian ambassador to the UN and other Indonesian
officials have been saying today the situation is better, quieter in East
Timor, yet we've seen some footage apparently smuggled out to Australia that
suggests quite the opposite. What are you hearing about what's going on, on
the ground?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: I have to say that hundreds of people have already been
killed, executed by the Indonesian army. At least three priests, Catholic
priests, are confirmed dead. The second bishop of East Timor -- Don Basili
Donashimento[ph] -- has gone to the mountains as well. The information I have
heard -- not confirmed -- is that he has been wounded. The Indonesian army is
chasing the resistant fighters and together with them the thousands of
displaced persons who are in the mountains.
MARGARET WARNER: How many people have been forced to flee their homes, or
have fled?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: A total of about 250,000 in the last four days alone.
Thousands have been pushed into trucks and trucked away to Indonesia. This is
mass deportation of the worst kind.
Another Kosovo?
MARGARET WARNER: Well, we just saw some footage of people being put on
military trucks. Where, when you said being deported to Indonesia, where, to
the western part of Timor?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: They are sent to the western part of East Timor and herded
into camps with no access by the International Red Cross, no doctors, no
proper food, no water, no sanitation. Hundreds have been put into ships and
sent away to remote Indonesian islands. This is mass deportation, similar to
the deportation of Kosovars or during World War II by the Nazis of Jews in
Germany and in Europe.
MARGARET WARNER: So, who's directing this?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: This is a policy of the Indonesian army, of the two
branches: the special forces and the military intelligence. I believe even
the defense minister of Indonesia has no control over these elements of the
forces on the ground in East Timor. They are the ones who challenged policies
of the president. They are the ones who do not want to accept the results of
the referendum, which favors independence.
MARGARET WARNER: So, in other words, your view is that the civilian
leadership, President Habibie and his government, are not behind this but are
powerless to stop it?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: Yes, I believe so, that President Habibie would not have
started this whole process now to get the army to stop it...
MARGARET WARNER: You mean, because it was his initiative to have the
referendum?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: It was his initiative. He publicly accepted the result of
the referendum, saying they would honor it. The same was said by the Foreign
Minister Ali Alatas and defense minister -- but you have in Indonesia two
powerful factions, the special forces and the army intelligence.
MARGARET WARNER: So, in other words, are you saying that you don't even think
that the military high command in Jakarta, General Wiranto and his group are
running this?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: No. I don't think General Wiranto himself is involved. He
is challenged by these two powerful institutions, the special forces and army
intelligence with their own people in highest echelon of the army hierarchy
in Indonesia, such as army general, Zachi Enwar[ph], chief of army
intelligence. He is the one directing it from Jakarta.
�
A spiral of violence
MARGARET WARNER: Now, as you know, Indonesian officials are saying -- and we
had the Indonesian ambassador here last night -- saying, well, the government
is sending in fresh troops to East Timor, troops that have no ties to East
Timor. Do you think that is going to make any difference?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: When are the old troops going to leave then? They keep
sending more troops and more killings occur. It's a bit like asking Hitler to
send more troops into Poland to save the Jews or asking Saddam Hussein to
send more troops to Northern Iraq to save the Kurdish or asking Milosevic to
send more troops to Kosovo to save the Kosovars.
MARGARET WARNER: The international community, as you know, is saying that
they're not going to send in foreign troops unless the government of
Indonesia agrees. Do you see any prospect that the government would agree?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: The Indonesian government will not agree, and if the United
States and the powers that be keep dragging their feet under that pretext,
they will be responsible for the killing, for the death, for the genocide,
thousands of innocent people who trusted the U.N., who trusted the
international community -- they went to vote -- 80 percent voted for
independence, and they have been abandoned; they've been betrayed by the
whole world community.
MARGARET WARNER: But when you say the government will never agree if
President Habibie, you think would actually like to correct this situation.
Why wouldn't he invite international troops in?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: President Habibie has no power. He cannot do it because the
army, those who are in charge, they will not let him do it. If he challenges
the army, he will be overthrown; there will be a military coup in Indonesia.
MARGARET WARNER: Do you think the international community has enough leverage
to force whoever the powers that be are in Indonesia to change its mind on
this point?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: There are enough powers in the world, the United States,
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines, Japan, they're all concerned
about Indonesia's challenge to the U.N. They are prepared to send in forces.
It is just necessary that the Security Council take action, adopt a
resolution, regardless of whether Jakarta say yes or no, because, after all,
East Timor was never part of Indonesia; unlike Kosovo, which is part of
Serbia, the U.N. never recognized East Timor, so why should they wait for
authorization from the government of a congress illegally occupying East
Timor anyway?
A reluctant world community? �
MARGARET WARNER: But Mr. Ramos-Horta, you know better than anyone that for a
quarter century the international community for a variety of strategic,
economic reasons has not been willing to risk a confrontation with Indonesia
over East Timor. Do you think anything's changed fundamentally?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: Absolutely. There are things that the world community can
do, the World Bank, the IMF, the Congress can terminate financial assistance
to Indonesia. That would put enormous burden and pressure on the army.
MARGARET WARNER: But I guess my question is: Do you really think the
international community will do this, given its view about Indonesia's
strategic and economic importance?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: Indonesia is not economically important. It is expecting to
receive $75 billion from the IMF, billions of dollars from the U.S., the
World Bank, they are thoroughly bankrupt, and yet they are wasting millions
more on a war of genocide against a small, defenseless people. Indonesia has
become not a factor of stability, strategic stability in the region, but, in
fact, by their actions they are the ones who are threatening stability in
Southeast Asia.
MARGARET WARNER: But what does the sort of hard-headed realist in you tell
you about whether the United States or Australia or any of these other
countries is ready to see it as you're seeing it, that it's time to really
push Indonesia?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: You have two issues here. One is an issue of morality of
international law. And that's what led the United States and Europeans into
Kosovo, not for strategic reasons. In East Timor, in Indonesia, you have also
an issue of morality and human decency, but there is also an issue of the
credibility of the international community, the credibility of the United
Nations. If the U.N. is allowed to fail there, if the world community, the
United States, the major powers, do not back up the secretary-general on this
issue, yes, it will threaten the credibility of the whole U.N., and that is a
matter of concern for the whole humanity, because if the U.N. is following
its credit, failing this, I don't think in the years to come anyone will ever
trust the United Nations ever again.
�
A vote for independence �
MARGARET WARNER: And you're referring, obviously, to the fact that this was a
U.N.-sponsored referendum, and the U.N. was supposed to ultimately be
responsible for the interim, the transition to self-rule?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: We were told by the United Nations to go and register. We
were told to go and vote. We were told by Secretary of State Madeleine
Albright, "The U.S., the world community, will not abandon you." We were told
by the Australians, the European Union. Our people challenging the militias,
the thugs, defying all the threats, they went and registered to vote in the
most democratic exercise ever. When you see tens of thousands of people
walking down the mountains to cast their vote, their vote for freedom-- and
what is the price? What is now the reaction of the world community --
allowing these people to be slaughtered?
MARGARET WARNER: What kind of reaction have you gotten this week, let's say,
from World Bank officials and from members of Congress and U.N. officials?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: I am thoroughly pleased with my discussions today with
President Jim Wolfensohn of the World Bank. I cannot put words in his mouth,
but I believe that he will do whatever he can so that the conscience of
humanity will take action. I also believe that the U.S. Congress will take
action to stop military sales, military assistance, military cooperation with
Indonesia. But I am thoroughly disappointed so far with the administration
that is not moving beyond rhetoric, not moving beyond diplomatic
representation. The U.S. must take the lead in the Security Council for a
U.N.- mandated intervention force in East Timor.
MARGARET WARNER: You also, I gather, did not meet with any Clinton
administration officials. How did you read that?
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: No, I did not meet, only because of a time schedule. All
the administration officials are in Auckland-- Secretary of State Albright,
Stanley Roth. I have been on the phone with National Security Council
officials. I've been on the phone with Ambassador Holbrooke. I think the
dialogue between me and the Clinton administration officials has been very
productive, and I believe I'll be seeing administration officials during the
APEC summit in Auckland.
MARGARET WARNER: All right. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Ramos-Horta.
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: Thank you.
