On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 10:36 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Made it a little further. Then some new clang errors.
>
> clang: error: unknown argument: '-mfp16-format=ieee'
>
> I really appreciate the help, Matt.
>
We don't add that, and I think this is the wrong log file.
I see Satish has successfully built with those options.
Thanks,
Matt
> Jeffrey
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 10:30 AM Matthew Knepley <knep...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 10:27 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I remember that now. conda used to be so helpful. It always gets me
>>> when I try to rebuild.
>>>
>>> I removed it and got stuck in hdf5 again. Anaconda is gone, but it looks
>>> lille mpif90 was not found.
>>>
>>> configure:7444: mpif90 -c -ffree-line-length-none -ffree-line-length-0
>>> -Wno-lto-type-mismatch -O3 -Wno-unused-function -fallow-argument-mismatch
>>> -fallow-argument-mismatch conftest.f90 >&5
>>> ./configure: line 2482: mpif90: command not found
>>>
>>>
>>> should I try --download-mpich=
>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.mpich.org/static/downloads/4.3.0/mpich-4.3.0.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl1enaIUs$
>>> . that
>>> Satish suggested?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, since now it seems you do not have an MPI.
>>
>> THanks,
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>> J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 10:12 AM Matthew Knepley <knep...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 10:09 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> did 1 - 4, now I'm getting an error configuring hdf5. configure.log
>>>>> attached,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I forgot to look at your environment. This is what was causing your MPI
>>>> issues. Always turn off all Anaconda stuff in the env when building PETSc.
>>>>
>>>> configure:7444: mpif90 -c -ffree-line-length-none
>>>> -ffree-line-length-0 -Wno-lto-type-mismatch -O3 -Wno-unused-function
>>>> -fallow-argument-mismatch -fallow-argument-mismatch -x f95 conftest.f90 >&5
>>>>
>>>> /Users/hymanjd/opt/anaconda3/bin/mpif90: line 392:
>>>> x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0-gfortran: command not found
>>>>
>>>> configure:7444: $? = 127
>>>>
>>>> configure: failed program was:
>>>>
>>>> | program main
>>>>
>>>> |
>>>>
>>>> | end
>>>>
>>>> configure:7454: result: unknown
>>>>
>>>> configure:7457: error: Fortran could not compile .f90 files
>>>>
>>>> It has ceased to be a force for good.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Matthew Knepley <knep...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 9:28 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know he and Richard have it on the to do list. But I'll encourage
>>>>>>> them at a meeting tomorrow. : )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That file for the make to work, but the check failed. Looks like MPI
>>>>>>> might have gotten crossed up in all the installs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I would
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Preserve the reconfigure-***.py and gmakegen.py
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Remove the whole $PETSC_DIR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) Get rid of the preinstalled OpenMPI you have. It is usually
>>>>>> somewhat broken and not helping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) Reclone and rebuild
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, Matt! Feels close.
>>>>>>> J
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 9:20 AM Matthew Knepley <knep...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 9:17 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, Pflotran hasn't been updated to use 3.22 yet. So
>>>>>>>>> I'm stuck with 3.21.5. Can I hack the python path?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tell Glenn to get in gear :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you can just get this file:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://gitlab.com/petsc/petsc/-__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl1FAfliQ$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> /blob/release-3.22/config/gmakegen.py?ref_type=heads
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and put it in $PETSC_DIR/config/gmakegen.py
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finger crossed,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> J
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 9:14 AM Matthew Knepley <knep...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 9:08 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This configure worked
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ./configure --COPTFLAGS='-O3' --CXXOPTFLAGS='-O3'
>>>>>>>>>>> --FOPTFLAGS='-O3 -Wno-unused-function -fallow-argument-mismatch'
>>>>>>>>>>> --with-debugging=no --download-mpich=yes --download-hdf5=yes
>>>>>>>>>>> --download-hdf5-fortran-bindings=yes --download-fblaslapack=yes
>>>>>>>>>>> --download-metis=yes --download-parmetis=yes --download-cmake=
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://gitlab.kitware.com/cmake/cmake/-/archive/v3.31.7/cmake-v3.31.7.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl_ZMADHY$
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>> --download-cmake-cc=clang --download-cmake-cxx=clang++
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but then it failed on the make. configure and make attached.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We could backport a check for this. The Python is newer than the
>>>>>>>>>> release 3.21.5, so we are using something that went away. If you use
>>>>>>>>>> 3.22
>>>>>>>>>> or higher this is fixed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 8:53 AM Jeffrey Hyman <hyma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I updated brew llvm to the latest clang
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Homebrew clang version 20.1.3
>>>>>>>>>>>> Target: arm64-apple-darwin24.3.0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thread model: posix
>>>>>>>>>>>> InstalledDir: /opt/homebrew/Cellar/llvm/20.1.3/bin
>>>>>>>>>>>> Configuration file:
>>>>>>>>>>>> /opt/homebrew/etc/clang/arm64-apple-darwin24.cfg
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and that seems happier with gfortran. I'm guessing that
>>>>>>>>>>>> updating my mac OS to sequoia mixed stuff up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 8:24 AM Jeffrey Hyman <
>>>>>>>>>>>> hyma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had tried with clang as well, but was getting this error.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like something with the arm64. Maybe remove and reinstall
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gfortran?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =============================================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TESTING: checkFortranNameMangling from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> config.compilers(config/BuildSystem/config/compilers.py:78
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *********************************************************************************************
>>>>>>>>>>>>> UNABLE to CONFIGURE with GIVEN OPTIONS (see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> configure.log for details):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unknown Fortran name mangling: Are you sure the C and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fortran compilers are compatible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps one is 64-bit and one is 32-bit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> See
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://petsc.org/release/faq/*macos-gfortran__;Iw!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl-pZS6Dn$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *********************************************************************************************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 7:56 AM Matthew Knepley <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> knep...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 10:02 PM Satish Balay <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balay....@fastmail.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you have for:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clang --version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ./configure COPTFLAGS=-O3 CXXOPTFLAGS=-O3 FOPTFLAGS="-O3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Wno-unused-function -fallow-argument-mismatch" \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --with-debugging=no --download-mpich=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.mpich.org/static/downloads/4.3.0/mpich-4.3.0.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl1enaIUs$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --download-hdf5=yes --with-hdf5-fortran-bindings=yes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --download-fblaslapack=yes \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --download-metis=yes --download-parmetis=yes \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CC=gcc-14 CXX=g++-14 FC=gfortran-14 --download-make=yes \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --download-cmake=
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://gitlab.kitware.com/cmake/cmake/-/archive/v3.31.7/cmake-v3.31.7.tar.gz__;!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl_ZMADHY$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --download-cmake-cc=clang --download-cmake-cxx=clang++
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You could use clang. Your g++ is broken:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Error when bootstrapping CMake:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem while running make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Log of errors:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Users/hymanjd/src/petsc/arch-darwin-c-debug/externalpackages/cmake-3.29.0/Bootstrap.cmk/cmake_bootstrap.log
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stdout:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In file included from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /opt/homebrew/Cellar/gcc/14.2.0_1/include/c++/14/ext/string_conversions.h:43,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /opt/homebrew/Cellar/gcc/14.2.0_1/include/c++/14/bits/basic_string.h:4154,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /opt/homebrew/Cellar/gcc/14.2.0_1/include/c++/14/string:54,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Users/hymanjd/src/petsc/arch-darwin-c-debug/externalpackages/cmake-3.29.0/Source/cmTimestamp.h:9,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Users/hymanjd/src/petsc/arch-darwin-c-debug/externalpackages/cmake-3.29.0/Source/cmTimestamp.cxx:15:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /opt/homebrew/Cellar/gcc/14.2.0_1/include/c++/14/cstdlib:141:11:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> error: 'at_quick_exit' has not been declared in '::'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 141 | using ::at_quick_exit;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | ^~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /opt/homebrew/Cellar/gcc/14.2.0_1/include/c++/14/cstdlib:164:11:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> error: 'quick_exit' has not been declared in '::'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 164 | using ::quick_exit;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | ^~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make: *** [cmTimestamp.o] Error 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Error running configure on CMAKE:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could not execute "['./configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --prefix=/Users/hymanjd/src/petsc/arch-darwin-c-debug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --parallel=8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CC="/opt/homebrew/bin/gcc-14" CXX="/opt/homebrew/bin/g++-14" --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -DCMAKE_USE_OPENSSL=OFF']":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything that includes <string> looks like it will break.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025, Jeffrey Hyman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Thanks, I'll give it a spin and let you know how it goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > JDH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 8:43 PM Matthew Knepley <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knep...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 8:34 PM Jeffrey Hyman <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hyma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> I am trying to build v3.21.5 to use with pflotran. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> issues with cmake. configure log attached. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > The documentation could be clearer here. We cannot use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the PETSc compilers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > to build CMake since it explicitly does not want MPI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus you need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > specify them yourself. That means you would need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > --download-cmake-cc=/opt/homebrew/bin/gcc-14
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > --download-cmake-cxx=/opt/homebrew/bin/g++-14
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Matt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> Thanks for the help,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > What most experimenters take for granted before they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > experiments is infinitely more interesting than any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results to which their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > experiments lead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > -- Norbert Wiener
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bZa6EMKsRCbKBAnduL8Vva4vRPvbjUsz_v4OKJW8-c8D8gQcN4fZPfrAaQfZ37j1kQzigfg-TVDeQNOczHyI$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!bZa6EMKsRCbKBAnduL8Vva4vRPvbjUsz_v4OKJW8-c8D8gQcN4fZPfrAaQfZ37j1kQzigfg-TVDeQKP18rKz$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What most experimenters take for granted before they begin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their experiments is infinitely more interesting than any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results to which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their experiments lead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Norbert Wiener
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their
>>>>>>>>>> experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> experiments lead.
>>>>>>>>>> -- Norbert Wiener
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their
>>>>>>>> experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> experiments lead.
>>>>>>>> -- Norbert Wiener
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their
>>>>>> experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> experiments lead.
>>>>>> -- Norbert Wiener
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their
>>>> experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which their
>>>> experiments lead.
>>>> -- Norbert Wiener
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
>>>>
>>>> <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their
>> experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which their
>> experiments lead.
>> -- Norbert Wiener
>>
>> https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
>>
>> <https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>> >
>>
>
--
What most experimenters take for granted before they begin their
experiments is infinitely more interesting than any results to which their
experiments lead.
-- Norbert Wiener
https://urldefense.us/v3/__https://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl85KcGm1$
<https://urldefense.us/v3/__http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/*knepley/__;fg!!G_uCfscf7eWS!YXoxD2_GoRH4EC8THVn5_Xa7dJ6P4ZvvoTCVRbnqPrxZYzX3nTPhETpv0W3PijYI4Sn3SG9SxhaFl5QAD3cS$
>
