>> Thanks tobias.
>>
>> To me your version of SS3 looks even more Squeak centric and this is ok but
>> my plate is full
>> and I'm sorry but I focus on Pharo because we must deliver and continue.
>
> That was uncalled for. Stéphane Ducasse, what is it you want to tell me?
> Whatever emotion or reaction you wanted to transport, you effected
> borderline insult and accusation.
seriously? This was not my intention.
> First, I just opened a tool I am maintaining for public participation.
> Recall: “For me to test new features of SqueakSource3 …”.
> What, please tell me, what makes this incarnation of SS3 “even more Squeak
> centric”?
> That it is run on GemStone? That I developed it in the SeasideOneClick image
> (which happens to be a Pharo one)? Mon dieu, seulement le mot «Squeak«, la
> partie
> du mot «SqueakSource». Do you want to hold me accountable for not changing a
> long standing product name?
I think that you are overreacting.
I'm just saying that instead of maintaining and developing two forges having a
good one would be better.
> Second, what has the delivery and continuation of Pharo to do with my service
> of
> offering a canary SS3 instance? Do you care to elaborate?
I simply do not have the time to maintain multiple resources of documents (you
know Chapter like Gofer), gofer api….
Just yesterday we updated the SS3 part to use the new URL.
>> Now don't you think that joining effort on SmalltalkHub (did you see the
>> name is not PharoHub)
>> would make more sense?
>
> Are we playing on names now? There are instances of SqueakSource out there
> that
> are not primarily used for Squeak. Just the name does not make anything fixed
> to that, thank you.
> But content-wise, what is it that should attract me more to SH than what
> attracts
> me currently to SS3?
- Speed.
- Team management
- Momentum
> Look:
> 1. I happen to have started SS3 in 2008/2009 to support the
> SqueakSource
> instance that that is running at my University. That is the only
> reason.
I can understand it
> 2. I have tried to improve and integrate many different features present
> in different SqueakSources and in that course, SqueakSource3 emerged
> about around four (4) years ago. And I know that you were aware
> of it.
sure I do not deny it. Now my point is that Nicolas invested a lot of time in
building a new scalable
infrastructure. If you want to continue maintaining SS3 why not? this is your
time and energy.
I'm just saying that I would like to avoid to
Tobias my goal is not to be against Squeak. I gave to Squeak a lot more than
any average squeaker.
MY GOAL IS TO OFFER AN ECONOMICAL COMPETITIVE ECOSYSTEM TO PEOPLE WILLING TO
INVEST INTO SOFTWARE IN SMALLTALK and this in the context of JS, Lua, Python,
Rails.
> 3. I can only invest my leisure time into SqueakSource, and I feel
> committed
> to _NOT_ abandon existing infrastructure; at least three websites out
> there run SqueakSource, if not more. I would feel unreasonable to
> just
> drop them.
Ok but you could join SmalltalkHub too.
We gave up on Squeaksource code. Look on SS3 we cannot even browse project
lists.
So this is why we decided to push and SmalltalkHub. Nicolas is using some of
his time to improve it
because we ask him.
> 4. How, up until now, should I have known that joint effort is welcomed
> or
> even possible?
Nicolas always announced that SmalltalkHub is open-source and that people can
help and join.
May be you did not see it. But it was always like that.
> IIRC, at the 2010 ESUG in Barcelona, you publicly asked
> about what to do with the unstable SqueakSource.
Probably I'm always worried about providing good infrastructure
> I don't know whether I talked directly to you or Marcus or
> whomever,
> but I offered intensive collaboration.
Probably me. But you know I have multiple lives and doing far too many things
and it was 3 years ago.
You know we are doing many things and ESUG saw that SS was in danger so we (THE
BOARD) decided
that it was good to push a new service to the community.
> I never hear back of y'all.
> Some time later, SmalltalkHub was started.
> Have you ever felt being stamped on?
> Have you ever felt slapped in the face?
> I had, then.
Ok it was not our intention to hurt you or by pass you.
may be sending a little mail would have solved that feeling.
We were just looking at a solution because this is 4 years that Squeaksource is
running on a slow machine
and was backup from time to time.
>> Also because the stack behind is sexy and can be reused/improved for
>> business.
>
> Yes I know. While I am not 100% sure, what the exact stack is, I know
> that Amber, Iliad, and GemStone are cool, I like them really.
> But I also think that the Seaside-Magritte-GemStone-Nginx stack
> is also cool.
Amber, Seaside, Voyage, Mongo
>> And you guess what? I want and push daily business in Pharo.
>
> Please do, you have my full support. However, what does that
> have to do with either SqueakSource3 or SmalltalkHub?
It has to do with having one good infrastructure and I was thinking ok if
tobias would help in SmalltalkHub
then SmalltalkHub would be better (I'm not talking about the website - but the
software stack).
> The tools I have built or collaborated with run in Pharo, so what is the deal?
Split of energy. If we have two guys working on the same forge then this is
better than two guys working on two
different forges.
>> I want smart guys like you, camillo, guilermo, ben, nicolas, igor, esteban
>> and many more to
>> be able to decide if they want to get a cool job with Pharo.
>
> We are all able to decide whether we want to have a cool job with Pharo.
:)
Only if there are jobs!
> But please don't judge me that my image of Smalltalk is broader than just
> Pharo.
You think that mine is narrow minded :).
> A bientôt,
> -Tobias
>
> PS: On style.
> a) Is a rant a proper reaction to an announcement?
It was not a rant.
> Isn't that like criticizing alpha software using a bug list?
> b) The first words of a text set its impression with the reader.
> The first words of the email accused me of Squeak-centricsim,
> as if it actually was something to be accused of.
You see I'm not in the squeak mailing-list so I do not see how I could
give feedback as a user of SqueakSource3*
without being in the squeakmaili
> c) The last words of a text stay in mind.
> The last words of the email are selective in people and
> Smalltalk dialect.
Sure you know more than me.
you know of course that the last engineer that quitted my team is a VW engineer.
You also know that I suggested to some students doing pharo to apply to the
recent VW job offers.
You know so much about me that you can judge as being so narrow minded.
> They make you _sound_ like you don't want not as smart guys on
> Pharo and, more importantly, you don't want people on any other
> Smalltalk than Pharo.
Build a sexy one (but for real) and I will use it instead of burning my energy
building one.
> This is unbecoming for a president of
> an organization that represents european users of
> _all_ Smalltalk dialects. Do you?
Tobias when you will have 2% of what I did for our community, I will take your
insults seriously.
Now I just think that you are going off-road.
