Thanks Tobias for the update! This version looks good, and I think moving to bootstrap was a good move :)
About the competition, I don't mind it. About working on SmalltalkHub with me, I sure would be glad, but I also completely understand your point. One thing we could do though is maybe share experience (feel free to email me) and discuss about both platforms? It can always be positive. A note about stef's answer. I work with him everyday, and I can say that he for sure didn't mean to insult you. His emails can sometimes be taken the wrong way. It happened to me more than once (then I usually arrived at work and saw a friendly smile on his face). But hey, stef, sometimes you may want to read twice your emails before sending them (and then wait a day or two, read it again, and make sure you're still ok with it ;-) Cheers, Nico On Jun 30, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.duca...@inria.fr> wrote: >>> Thanks tobias. >>> >>> To me your version of SS3 looks even more Squeak centric and this is ok but >>> my plate is full >>> and I'm sorry but I focus on Pharo because we must deliver and continue. >> >> That was uncalled for. Stéphane Ducasse, what is it you want to tell me? >> Whatever emotion or reaction you wanted to transport, you effected >> borderline insult and accusation. > > seriously? This was not my intention. > >> First, I just opened a tool I am maintaining for public participation. >> Recall: “For me to test new features of SqueakSource3 …”. >> What, please tell me, what makes this incarnation of SS3 “even more Squeak >> centric”? >> That it is run on GemStone? That I developed it in the SeasideOneClick image >> (which happens to be a Pharo one)? Mon dieu, seulement le mot «Squeak«, la >> partie >> du mot «SqueakSource». Do you want to hold me accountable for not changing a >> long standing product name? > > I think that you are overreacting. > I'm just saying that instead of maintaining and developing two forges having > a good one would be better. > >> Second, what has the delivery and continuation of Pharo to do with my >> service of >> offering a canary SS3 instance? Do you care to elaborate? > > I simply do not have the time to maintain multiple resources of documents > (you know Chapter like Gofer), gofer api…. > Just yesterday we updated the SS3 part to use the new URL. > >>> Now don't you think that joining effort on SmalltalkHub (did you see the >>> name is not PharoHub) >>> would make more sense? >> >> Are we playing on names now? There are instances of SqueakSource out there >> that >> are not primarily used for Squeak. Just the name does not make anything fixed >> to that, thank you. >> But content-wise, what is it that should attract me more to SH than what >> attracts >> me currently to SS3? > > - Speed. > - Team management > - Momentum > > >> Look: >> 1. I happen to have started SS3 in 2008/2009 to support the >> SqueakSource >> instance that that is running at my University. That is the only >> reason. > > I can understand it > >> 2. I have tried to improve and integrate many different features present >> in different SqueakSources and in that course, SqueakSource3 emerged >> about around four (4) years ago. And I know that you were aware >> of it. > > sure I do not deny it. Now my point is that Nicolas invested a lot of time in > building a new scalable > infrastructure. If you want to continue maintaining SS3 why not? this is your > time and energy. > I'm just saying that I would like to avoid to > > Tobias my goal is not to be against Squeak. I gave to Squeak a lot more than > any average squeaker. > MY GOAL IS TO OFFER AN ECONOMICAL COMPETITIVE ECOSYSTEM TO PEOPLE WILLING TO > INVEST INTO SOFTWARE IN SMALLTALK and this in the context of JS, Lua, Python, > Rails. > > >> 3. I can only invest my leisure time into SqueakSource, and I feel >> committed >> to _NOT_ abandon existing infrastructure; at least three websites out >> there run SqueakSource, if not more. I would feel unreasonable to >> just >> drop them. > > Ok but you could join SmalltalkHub too. > We gave up on Squeaksource code. Look on SS3 we cannot even browse project > lists. > So this is why we decided to push and SmalltalkHub. Nicolas is using some of > his time to improve it > because we ask him. > >> 4. How, up until now, should I have known that joint effort is welcomed >> or >> even possible? > > Nicolas always announced that SmalltalkHub is open-source and that people can > help and join. > May be you did not see it. But it was always like that. > >> IIRC, at the 2010 ESUG in Barcelona, you publicly asked >> about what to do with the unstable SqueakSource. > > Probably I'm always worried about providing good infrastructure > >> I don't know whether I talked directly to you or Marcus or >> whomever, >> but I offered intensive collaboration. > > Probably me. But you know I have multiple lives and doing far too many things > and it was 3 years ago. > You know we are doing many things and ESUG saw that SS was in danger so we > (THE BOARD) decided > that it was good to push a new service to the community. > > >> I never hear back of y'all. >> Some time later, SmalltalkHub was started. >> Have you ever felt being stamped on? >> Have you ever felt slapped in the face? >> I had, then. > > Ok it was not our intention to hurt you or by pass you. > may be sending a little mail would have solved that feeling. > We were just looking at a solution because this is 4 years that Squeaksource > is running on a slow machine > and was backup from time to time. > >>> Also because the stack behind is sexy and can be reused/improved for >>> business. >> >> Yes I know. While I am not 100% sure, what the exact stack is, I know >> that Amber, Iliad, and GemStone are cool, I like them really. >> But I also think that the Seaside-Magritte-GemStone-Nginx stack >> is also cool. > > Amber, Seaside, Voyage, Mongo > > >>> And you guess what? I want and push daily business in Pharo. >> >> Please do, you have my full support. However, what does that >> have to do with either SqueakSource3 or SmalltalkHub? > > It has to do with having one good infrastructure and I was thinking ok if > tobias would help in SmalltalkHub > then SmalltalkHub would be better (I'm not talking about the website - but > the software stack). > >> The tools I have built or collaborated with run in Pharo, so what is the >> deal? > > Split of energy. If we have two guys working on the same forge then this is > better than two guys working on two > different forges. > >>> I want smart guys like you, camillo, guilermo, ben, nicolas, igor, esteban >>> and many more to >>> be able to decide if they want to get a cool job with Pharo. >> >> We are all able to decide whether we want to have a cool job with Pharo. > > :) > Only if there are jobs! > > >> But please don't judge me that my image of Smalltalk is broader than just >> Pharo. > > You think that mine is narrow minded :). > > >> A bientôt, >> -Tobias >> >> PS: On style. >> a) Is a rant a proper reaction to an announcement? > > It was not a rant. > >> Isn't that like criticizing alpha software using a bug list? >> b) The first words of a text set its impression with the reader. >> The first words of the email accused me of Squeak-centricsim, >> as if it actually was something to be accused of. > > You see I'm not in the squeak mailing-list so I do not see how I could > give feedback as a user of SqueakSource3* > without being in the squeakmaili > >> c) The last words of a text stay in mind. >> The last words of the email are selective in people and >> Smalltalk dialect. > > Sure you know more than me. > you know of course that the last engineer that quitted my team is a VW > engineer. > You also know that I suggested to some students doing pharo to apply to the > recent VW job offers. > You know so much about me that you can judge as being so narrow minded. > >> They make you _sound_ like you don't want not as smart guys on >> Pharo and, more importantly, you don't want people on any other >> Smalltalk than Pharo. > > Build a sexy one (but for real) and I will use it instead of burning my > energy building one. > >> This is unbecoming for a president of >> an organization that represents european users of >> _all_ Smalltalk dialects. Do you? > > Tobias when you will have 2% of what I did for our community, I will take > your insults seriously. > Now I just think that you are going off-road. > > > > -- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr
