well... I already said it: being welcoming does not means becoming another language. The proposal is to remove non-sense differences, not to remove the ones that actually matters (and syntax matters a lot).
And yes, sometimes (like when we deprecated #caseOf:) we need to enforce differences, just because we are another environment, another language, another libraries (and #caseOf: like the abuse of ifs is procedural programming... or encourages procedural programming). On Oct 15, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Nicolas Cellier <[email protected]> wrote: > Pushing the newcomers argument: if newcomers are used to using if then else > and switch case, why did you deprecate usage caseOf:? > If newcomers argument counts, shouldn't we remove text editing, browser, > etc..., go back to file based development and create an eclipse (or emacs) > plugin? > > I saw very good arguments for proportional: more readable/natural/more text > on the line... > So I'm inlne with Pavel, > > Is there any argument for fixed space (but the hypothetical newcomer). > There are some times when we must educate rather than imitate. > > > 2013/10/15 Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> > > On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:29, Tudor Girba <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I am in favor of using monospaced fonts for the code and sans serif fonts > > for the rest of the things. I pushed the Source Sans + Source Code fonts > > for the Moose image since half a year, and actually people like the look of > > them. I am a bit surprised to see such virulent reactions :). > > > > @Sven: the mail discussions that led to the fonts choice had you in CC the > > whole time :). > > OK, maybe a didn't pay enough attention: I knew it was about look and feel > and (a) new font(s), I failed to register that it actually was about using a > monospaced font. > > I can't belief that you are surprised about the reactions ;-) > > For what it is worth, I still haven't heard any solid argument for the > change. Even if it is just aesthetics and it doesn't make a difference, there > is still the question why we have to change. > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:05, Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Oct 15, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 16:35, Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >>> except that it is not accurate :) > > >>> > > >>> - with a monospace you can have bolds and italic without problems (it > > >>> is a decent one)... and you also can play with sizes (for example, for > > >>> comments) > > >>> - when you copy&paste you will lose part of your formatting no matter > > >>> if you have a fixed font or a proportional one (is not true that you > > >>> lose all of them... in fact I usually do not lose any) > > >> > > >> Sorry, but there are no sensible arguments in favour of a monospaced > > >> font. It is just not needed (in Smalltalk). Another way to look at it > > >> is: 99.99 % of the world use proportional fonts. > > >> > > >> BTW, I think whoever made this 'decision' knew it would be _very_ hard > > >> to get this passed ;-) > > >> > > >> Maybe we should switch to C/Java/Javascript syntax so that we do not > > >> scare newcomers ? Sorry, I could not resist. > > > not taken. > > > and non sense. > > > idea is to welcome newcomers, not to became another language. > > > Now... if font is *part* of the language, we could be talking about the > > > same. But since it is not, then we are comparing apples with tomatoes. > > > > > > I can say that no, 99% of the world do not use proportional fonts... > > > every other programing environment uses monospaced fonts. > > > yeah, I know "we are different"... but we still code. Ah, no, sorry... we > > > "manipulate objects", but that looks really close to coding for me. > > > > > > and yes... I was expecting a lot of whining (even if it was not me > > > *alone* who took the decision), but I was expecting from people at least > > > wait to see the fonts before start the bashing ;) > > > > Well, it is not 'bashing', I just totally do not agree. > > And I would like to know who else is in favour, how the decision was made. > > But I'll wait a bit for other comments. > > > > >>> On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:53 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Excellent arguments ! > > >>>> I am with you 100% > > >>>> > > >>>> On 15 Oct 2013, at 15:21, Igor Stasenko <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Since the days when editors was able to allow me using any fonts, i > > >>>>> was always switching to variable-spaced font > > >>>>> for code pane. And i am not speaking about smalltalk or pharo here, > > >>>>> it was C and Pascal those days :) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> guess, what i would prefer in pharo? :) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The bad things about getting used to monospaced fonts is that you > > >>>>> format code and it looks perfect, > > >>>>> but then you print it or copy/paste it somewhere else where it uses > > >>>>> other font, and all your beautiful formatting are gone. > > >>>>> Needless to say, that printing press was invented way before first > > >>>>> computer or digital printer, and all we know about fonts came > > >>>>> to us from the printing world.. and i think i would be right saying > > >>>>> that before first digital printers there was not such thing as > > >>>>> monospaced > > >>>>> fonts, because it is not economically efficient: you don't want to > > >>>>> waste space on front page of your newspaper by aligning glyphs to > > >>>>> some virtual grid. > > >>>>> More than that, it works well only if you using same font size and no > > >>>>> bold/underline variants whatever.. as soon as you use variants or > > >>>>> different font size, > > >>>>> all the benefits of 'formatting' using monospaced font is gone. > > >>>>> That means, if we employ monospaced font for code, we will be forced > > >>>>> to not use bold/italic variants, or different font size (for instance, > > >>>>> i would be like to play with code highlight scheme, where comments > > >>>>> using different font size, or where method name uses bigger font size > > >>>>> etc). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> Best regards, > > >>>>> Igor Stasenko. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "Every thing has its own flow" > > >
