Excellent points. Facing most of them on the Obj-C, Java, and PHP fronts. Now, in this age of cloud/bigdata/hadoop etc, there is one place where we could make it shine: web api automation & scripting.
Yes, Ruby and Python can do that too, but... with things like ZnClient and explore abilities, there is a significant advantage to Pharo. The growing space at the moment are things like Hadoop cluster 2.x. With HDFS for example, there is WebHDFS (REST API). So, this would be a space where we could become great due to the introspection abilities and livecoding. Coupled with Seaside, we could come up with fast interfaces. Now, Ruby has Sinatra for these things but we could have an edge if we start now. I am investigating Hortonworks Data Platform in depth since a couple weeks and Pharo really can help. The WebUIs (like Ambari) are decent, but nothing Seaside+Pharo cannot do fast. Lots of API are Java but the trend is to use REST things. My 0.02. --- Philippe Back Visible Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:[email protected] | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:53 PM, J.F. Rick <[email protected]> wrote: > Well, there are some serious reasons that Smalltalk is not currently so > popular. Here are a few: > (1) It used to be expensive. That kept it from being adopted initially. > That may no longer be the case but, once the reputation is ruined, it is > hard for people to give it a second chance. > (2) There is no natural bias built in. Want to program in the browser? > Learn Javascript. Want to program on the server? Learn PHP. Want to take > the AP CS exam in the US? Learn Java. Want to program for MacOS / iOS? > Learn Objective C. Want to use the Microsoft Developer Suite? Learn C#. > Want to bind to the largest set of libraries? Learn C. There is no killer > application domain for Smalltalk. > (3) The syntax is significantly different than languages people are > familiar with. In addition, the IDE is quite different. So, transitioning > is difficult. > (4) There's a Catch-22. People who want to employ Smalltalk programmers > can't find any, so they switch to some language they can find (e.g., Java). > Then, nobody bothers to learn Smalltalk because they perceive as no demand. > > I think there's a real possibility that Pharo can overcome these obstacles > in a meaningful way. The web technologies part is so strong already that it > could easily be the next Ruby on Rails (i.e., comes out of nowhere to gain > real market share by doing one thing really well). The simplicity and live > coding ability could also make it a very nice teaching language, but > significant work will need to be done to make it that. > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:14 PM, kilon alios <[email protected]>wrote: > >> frankly I find the community here, extremely friendly , well motivated, >> reasonable and humble. And I dont let a couple of incidents per year change >> my mind of what happens here on a daily basis. >> >> Smalltalk is unpopular because it never had a big company behind it or a >> good marketing strategy. 99% of people out there, had, have and will have >> no clue what smalltalk is all about. >> >> You want to talk about ObjC ? fine . Lets be honest , objc was like 42th >> most popular language in TIOBE and now is like 3rd. Why ? because iOS. >> Thats all, not because of quality of the language , not because it has >> super friendly community , not because users saw the light. >> >> The only thing that ObjC shares with smalltalk is message passing. Does >> that make ObjC part of the family , eh , no. Unless you are prepared to let >> tons other languages and IDEs join you, but then you still wont have a >> family but a nation. And ObjC is a seriously ugly language. Its still no >> C++ , Javascript , Perl or PHP, but its ugly. Smalltalk is gorgeous. >> >> Also dont put too much emphasis on popularity. Java library is super >> popular and many of its libraries are a big pile of mess. Its quantity vs >> quality. C++ is on the same boat. Popularity gives you mainly quantity. >> >> My advice is don't be humble, be proud of your work and what you have >> accomplished with Pharo and your individual project. And if sometimes >> things go south , remember its much better to be passionate than being >> dull. Its all part of being human. Keep an open mind, and keep walking , >> one step at a time. >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >>> On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why >>> > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But >>> these >>> > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show >>> Off. >>> > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they >>> > fight. >>> > >>> > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. >>> Invite >>> > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. >>> >>> I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: >>> these discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) >>> >>> -- >>> >>> But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the >>> definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most >>> popular language (family) in use today ! >>> >>> Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: >>> >>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> >>> I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is >>> part of the family. >>> >>> According to the first line of >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C >>> >>> Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language >>> that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. >>> >>> And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class >>> based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some >>> reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two >>> explicitly. >>> >>> Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! >>> >>> Sven >>> >>> PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is >>> really hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a >>> good list of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard >>> to define aspect to it. >>> >>> > All the best, >>> > Aik-Siong Koh >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > View this message in context: >>> http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html >>> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>> Nabble.com. >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. > http://www.je77.com/ > Skype ID: jochenrick >
