On 8 May 2015 at 20:23, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguc...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On 8 May 2015 at 20:00, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguc...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8 May 2015 at 19:39, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:32 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguc...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8 May 2015 at 19:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Alain Rastoul <alf.mmm....@gmail.com >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Le 08/05/2015 16:16, Eliot Miranda a écrit : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> if one uses a at doit transcript then no special action is >>>>>>>>> required to get output to appear beyond sending flush to Transcript >>>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>>> So any solution that requires special action to get the moronic >>>>>>>>> transcript >>>>>>>>> to work us broken. We should fix the transcript, not expect every >>>>>>>>> application to work around a bug. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Eliot (phone) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes using World dooneCycle is bad, but forking another process >>>>>>>> not bad IMHO: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is probably a solution to make the Transcript less moronic >>>>>>>> and refresh the world >>>>>>>> (it seems very different from Squeak transcript) but it would be >>>>>>>> an uncomplete specific-to-Transcript solution. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why? Why wouldn't it e a general solution that was available to any >>>>>>> morph that wanted to update its contents immediately? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The first thing I did when I tried Stef's example in Squeak was >>>>>>>> trying to move the window (it was >>>>>>>> a bit overlapped by my workspace) but I couldn't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If we do >>>>>>>> [ | m | >>>>>>>> [ m := BorderedMorph new borderColor: (Color yellow) . >>>>>>>> m position: 0@0. >>>>>>>> m openInWorld . >>>>>>>> 1 to: 500 do: [ :i | m position: i@i . >>>>>>>> 1 milliSeconds asDelay wait ] >>>>>>>> ] ensure: [ m delete ] . >>>>>>>> ] value >>>>>>>> we see nothing. >>>>>>>> if we replace value by fork, we can see a morph moving , because of >>>>>>>> the way Morphic world runs >>>>>>>> you know that of course, it's just that this example does not sound >>>>>>>> nice to me too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wouldn't it be better to execute do-it (s) systematically in >>>>>>>> another process ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I find this faintly absurd. This is, in the English phrase, the >>>>>>> tail wagging the dog. You don;t know how many issues executing doits in >>>>>>> their own process will cause (it could break Monticello package update >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, when running package postscripts, it could prevent doits doing >>>>>>> simple things, for example) all for want of the transcript updating >>>>>>> itself. So instead of fixing the problem we're considering introducing >>>>>>> huge unknowns in a core piece of the system? I think that's a little >>>>>>> mad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> True.. but this is only highlights how deeply broken the overall >>>>>> system around UI are. >>>>>> Why would MC postscripts need to run in UI thread? Aren't they should >>>>>> be completely independent of having UI process at all (unless we're >>>>>> talking >>>>>> about packages that actually providing these facilities) ? >>>>>> I know that running doits in separate process is 'bad idea' (tm). >>>>>> Only because of original bad idea in the past to not care about clearly >>>>>> separate things and rely on de-facto non-linear and intricate >>>>>> dependencies >>>>>> in system, that established over the years, because of lack of design and >>>>>> planning. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know it may sound like an arrogant moron blabbery, but it doesn't >>>>>> means i wrong :) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I still don't hear any rationale for the transcript not updating >>>>> itself when it does flush/endEntry:. I still don't hear any rationale for >>>>> the morphic transcript behaving differently to a stdout transcript. In >>>>> that case, it only makes sense to fix the transcript, right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Transcript is not an UI element, it is a stream. Period. >>>> >>> >>> Ah, a write-only invisible transcript. Riiiight. Really useful to log >>> output to somewhere no one can see it. Riiight. >>> >> No, Igor, the Transcript is a UI element and a stream. It is a place to >>> log textual output where the programmer can see it. It is Smalltalk's >>> standard output console. If one ants a stream which will record output one >>> can use a file. If one wants to see it in real time, one uses a transcript. >>> >>> >> what if i want to log to stdout.. why i need morphic UI element? >> > > I've said my piece. You're making me laugh. Keep digging. > > What's so funny? Would you be against having a widget, called , for instance 'stream contents viewer', that can be connected to any writeable stream and which display contents of that stream? And then sure thing, once we got such widget, it wouldn't be a much of a hassle to hook it with transcript stream and everyone is happy and joyful. Again, what is so funny in redirecting transcript to stdout or file? What if i run things on a server and can only connect via console and need to be aware of what happening with my image? Does that sounds funny? > Look, understand me wrong not. ;) >> I am not against having a UI element that showing the contents of >> transcript (or any other stream, why not?) and updates it as soon as >> possible (or as often as users see fit). >> Such element is indeed quite useful and quite needed.. >> What i am against is putting equality sign between transcript and such UI >> element. >> It is two different things, two different concerns. That's it. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> From that perspective, is it *not* broken in Pharo and works well. >>>> You can write to transcript and everything you written to it is not >>>> lost and recorded.. >>>> to be later piped wherever used wants it to. >>>> I repeat again, Transcript is *not* an UI element simply because it >>>> works even if there's no any transcript window open. >>>> From that perspective the 'flush' command issued cannot be interpreted >>>> as a 'do whatever it takes and deliver immediately my contents to the >>>> screen', >>>> because obviously there may be no any screen nor window.. >>>> So, the 'flush' behavior is more like a soft hint, that can be >>>> completely ignored (making users mad :) ) rather than strict command. >>>> >>>> So, forcing updates to the screen (even if you not really neeed it), is >>>> a separate >>>> issue, and as to me, has little to do with transcript, because it is >>>> more general problem of being able to update screen at the moment you want, >>>> not at the moment, when a system designed to do that. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and have a friendly way to control those processes, a bit similar >>>>>>>> to what happens when you launch your program in other IDEs like >>>>>>>> eclipse, >>>>>>>> visual studio, it starts another process ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And to start, with a simple right-click menu option : 'Do it >>>>>>>> async' to experiment >>>>>>>> (from a recent discussion, may be few problems with the inspector, >>>>>>>> but that's another point) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know how it works under other smalltalks, does it blocks >>>>>>>> under VisualWorks when you execute some do-it ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alain >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> best, >>>>>>> Eliot >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Igor Stasenko. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> best, >>>>> Eliot >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Igor Stasenko. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> best, >>> Eliot >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > > > > -- > best, > Eliot > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
