2017-02-20 10:27 GMT+01:00 Guillermo Polito <[email protected]>:
> As far as I remember, the main problem was not bandwidth but a blocking > and non-responsive UI. > Imagine I'm in the university, or in a company with a proxy. And I forget > to set the proxy. Then, while spotter tries to fetch catalog entries, it > would block the image and throw a timeout error some minutes after. > > So, maybe for the future and besides Ben's C option (which I like) I have a > > D) Load catalog entries in background in a non-blocking way > - and while catalog entries are not yet available, they should not be > shown > AFIK the main problem was that there was not possilbe to do it non-blocking way. -- Pavel > > Even further, It would make sense a solution that mixes Ben's caching with > background loading of the catalog entries... > > Guille > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Ben Coman <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:05 AM, Torsten Bergmann <[email protected]> wrote: >> > In the past in Pharo it was possible to open Spotter, type in the name >> of a framework/project to load >> > from catalog, perform a search and just hit ENTER to easily install the >> project. >> > >> > This was following the Spotter idea that it is easy to access most >> informations of Pharo >> > with the Spotter tool. >> > >> > There always was and still is a setting in "Settings" -> "Catalog" -> >> "Display catalog projects in Spotter". >> > This setting is ENABLED BY DEFAULT but could be switched off in the >> settings tool or custom preference >> > scripts if this is problematic for someone. >> > >> > >> > Now in Pharo 6 there is an additional class >> "GTSpotterExtensionSettings" to activate/deactivate >> > Spotter extensions. While nearly all of the Spotter extensions are >> enabled the one for the catalog >> > integration is DISABLED BY DEFAULT. >> > >> > This leads to several effects: >> > >> > 1. While in the past it was possible in a fresh Pharo image to search >> and install out of >> > the box it is (as of today in the not yet released Pharo 6) not >> possible anymore to quickly >> > start by searching and installing from catalog using Spotter. >> > >> > 2. It is very confusing that in the settings "Display catalog >> projects in Spotter" is enabled but a search >> > in Spotter gives no results. Most people will not not know about >> the second setting and easily >> > get lost and think this behavior is just broken. >> > Also this second setting for the Spotter extension is much more >> hidden between all the other >> > Spotter extension enablements very and hard to find. >> >> Generally its not good to have two settings for the one thing. >> >> > >> > 3. Several of my youtube videos demonstrating Goodies like >> DesktopManager, QuickAccess, >> > MessageFlowBrowser, ... directly start by loading the tools from >> Spotter. Anyone newbee who will >> > follow these will not only be confused - but also stuck in trying >> Pharo when he learns >> > from these videos. >> >> UI things do evolve and videos date. But these seem worthwhile to keep >> current. >> >> > >> > I was asked several times on Slack and via Mail from people who >> were not able to reproduce ... this >> > is really annyoing. Especially this gives the wrong impression to >> newbees. Things should be easy >> > not complicated. >> > >> > To my knowledge disabling the Spotter search in Pharo 6 came up due to >> some Pharo teaching in regions >> > with slow internet connection. >> >> This made sense at the time. It is a worse first impression if UI >> lags when this central part of the UI is interfaced. >> How often would it access the network? Every time? Or did it cache >> the result for a day, etc? >> >> > I understand that we would like to support these Pharo users too as best >> > as possible in their out of the box experience ... but (without being >> able to prove) I think that 90% or >> > more Pharo users have a regular internet connection. Otherwise it would >> be hard to work with updates, >> > project loading, PharoLauncher, STHub or Iceberg/GitHub. >> > >> > Also my own personal experience is that even on low bandwidth network >> this Catalog Spotter search for >> > me was always fast enough (as I often use Pharo in trains with slow >> connections or on a Pi with slow >> > connections and less processing power). I do not know about all others >> from the community. >> > >> > I invested hours in the past in developing and introducing the initial >> configuration browser to Pharo, >> > later improved and helped shaping its replacement CatalogBrowser, also >> contributed this spotter search >> > for the catalog items so things are more accessible, easy and >> enjoyable. That's why I also invested >> > hours in udpating configs or pushing you to put things into catalog. >> > >> > Because accessibility is key. Only when things are easy to access and >> understandable people will >> > enjoy Pharo. >> > >> > Currently in an out-of the box image this easy access to the projects >> via Spotter is blocked. >> > Additionally I have to explain to anyone who asks me that there is a >> second non-obvious/more hidden setting >> > leaving an unpleasant feeling how many others unknown to me will >> struggle with this issue. >> > >> > I see two solutions: >> > >> > A) We enable both settings by DEFAULT to bring back the Spotter >> search and installation >> > of catalog items - with the clear benefit of having >> > - the previous behavior in Pharo back >> > - the out of the box ability to search for catalog projects in >> any fresh image >> > - no confusion among the user base anymore regarding the >> settings >> > - we have unbroken Youtube videos that newbees can continue to >> follow >> > - if a user asks (like often) how to get Seaside, Artefact, >> Mongo, Teapot or other projects we can >> > just tell him "search in Spotter and you should be fine" as >> most of them have a config in >> > the catalog. >> > >> > Remember that not all of us know about all the github pages >> or nice Metacello expressions. >> > So the easier things are found and accessible the better it >> is. >> > >> > B) If A is still a "No go" for the community we should at a minimum >> switch the defaults of >> > the two settings: >> > >> > => we ENABLE the Spotter extension (GTSpotterExtensionSettings >> perform: #GTSpotter_spotterCatalogProjectsFor: with: true) >> > => we DISABLE the catalog setting (CatalogSettings >> displayCatalogProjectsInSpotter: false) >> > >> > With this at least we have no confusion among the user base >> anymore regarding the settings. >> >> C) Could a STON file of the catalog be cached in the zip of >> Image/Changes files? >> That zip might be updated daily to keep it current. >> Then in a fresh image Spotter searches the cached file for a instant >> response, >> while the Catalog is updated from the network in the background. >> >> Even with fast Internet the Catalog should only need to auto-update once >> a day, >> with results cached in a common file to be accessed when fresh images >> are started. >> >> The Spotter UI might display the last update date as part of the >> Catalog sub-heading in its results. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> > >> > I would clearly and strongly vote for option A as my preferred one. >> > >> > I agree there are regions/continents with very low bandwidth - but >> Pharo will rival with state of the art >> > technologies where loading/installation megabytes from the web is often >> not seen as an issue. There are >> > many package registries out there (from debian packages) up to Maven, >> npm in JS, ... or look at Docker. >> > Shuffling megabytes around is a reality in todays technologies. >> > >> > So to be honest I never understood this whole "bandwidth" discussion >> and even if this comes up it could >> > be solved with a note in the download/welcome screen or pointing to a >> custom preference script for low bandwidth >> > situations. >> > >> > Sorry for having to bring this up again ... but I would like this to be >> solved BEFORE Pharo 6 will >> > be pushed out of the door. Keeping it like it is without further >> actions would be really stupid. >> > >> > Thanks for you comments, ideas or votes. >> > >> > Thanks >> > T. >> > >> >> >
