From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: November 2, 2008 12:36:59 AM CEST
To: stephane ducasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
Reply-To: taun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
More details about the timesRepeat and hex problems I had. I know
when I found them I asked myself why someone would have touched
timesRepeat and why hex would have been removed. Neither made any
sense. Yet I also know my first view of each method in the image I
was using was through the debugger after the problem had become
apparent.
timesRepeat background.
Towards the beginning of this week,
I downloaded the latest Pharo image.
Opened and updated the image.
Saved image.
Used Monticello to loaded the application I was working on.
Application had some OrderedCollections which were missing the last
element value.
Checked my loop limits and found them to be correct.
Saw it was runnning my loop once rather than twice and this was
happening at timesRepeat:.
Debugged and stepped through including stepping into the
timesRepeat: method.
Saw timesRepeat had < rather than <=.
Scratched my head wondering why on the world this would be.
I checked the versions to see if there were initials and a previous
version. There weren't
Updated image.
Ran my application and it was fine.
Checked timesRepeat: and it was back to normal.
Checked my code in Monticello and it had no overrides for
timesRepeat:.
A mystery. One guess would be in stepping through the code, the
delete key was hit while in the timesRepeat: method and the method
was saved. How I could delete, save then have to restart the
debugging all without realizing it is also a mystery. I have two
young kids so maybe one of them helped with the distraction.
As for the missing Color #hex:, I looked through the Pharo change
log and found,...
!ScriptLoader methodsFor: 'sapphire - scripts' stamp:
'stephane.ducasse 6/8/2008 22:28'!
script124
| names|
names := '39Deprecated-sd.12.mcz
...
Cut lots of code from here but see below.
...
Color class removeSelector: #hex:!
"Graphics"!
"GraphicsTests"!
"Tests"!
"Postscript:
Leave the line above, and replace the rest of this comment by a
useful one.
Executable statements should follow this comment, and should
be separated by periods, with no exclamation points (!!).
Be sure to put any further comments in double-quotes, like this one."
|repository|
repository := MCHttpRepository
location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/Pharo/'
user: ''
password: ''.
(repository loadVersionFromFileNamed:'ScriptLoader-stephane.ducasse.
434.mcz') load.
ScriptLoader new update10034.
!
----End fileIn of a stream----!
Taun
----- Original Message -----
From: "stephane ducasse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "taun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Seaside - general discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 5:49:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
Eastern
Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:56 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Having not done a survey, I can only talk from my personal
experience. So far my personal experience is I have had about the
same number of issues in 2 weeks of using Pharo as in 2 years with
Squeak 3.9 and 3.10.
In Pharo, some OmniBrowser functionality was broken and as I said
timesRepeat: was broken. It had a '<' rather than '<=' for the loop
comparison so the loop ran one too few times. I ran an update which
fixed both problems. However the update also changed the World menu
and eliminated the flaps (I like the new menu and the flaps were
redundant). As someone who has used SmallTalk for over 20 years and
someone who hopefully understands why Pharo is so dynamic at the
moment, I can live with the issues mentioned previously. When I
debugged my loop, got to the timesRepeat: method and saw the test
condition, it was obvious what was wrong.
This is strange since I did not recall a change at that level.
I then performed an update in the hope that someone had already
fixed the problem. They had. I wanted to try out SmallFaces. I
loaded and started to test SmallFaces in the latest Pharo image. The
code broke. It turns out Pharo's Color class was missing #hex:. A
method in the 3.9
This is strange since we started from 3.9
and 3.10 images and used by SmallFaces. Again, a minor item to fix,
but not if you are new to SmallTalk and Squeak/Pharo.
I agree pharo is probably changing too fast for a new comers.
I should have say: 'Sergio if you hate the long menus of squeak
have a
look at pharo. If one day you start to look at squeak and start to
think that there
are some really bad smell like core behavior depending on UI, then
have a look at pharo'
Note please report to us any problem you get for running your
applications.
Before recommending the current version of Pharo to a new
SmallTalker, I think one really needs to ask oneself how they would
react if while feeling lost trying to learn a new language and
environment, the menus for the environment suddenly changed after an
update. Or their potential confusion when the environment doesn't
match all the existing tutorials.
I agree.
BTW: this is Smalltalk and not SmallTalk
I once worked at a company where we were growing so fast, every day
I went to work, the office walls had moved. I started to have dreams
about falling asleep at my desk and waking up to find my office door
replaced by a wall. The growth was exciting because it was a sign of
our success but it definitely made life difficult for new employees.
This is Pharo at the moment.
:)
Good.!
I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with the
new
browser of david and the clean menu.
Yes, when it is released and stable it would be better. But it is
neither at present.
It depends what you call stable :)
Taun
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Mitchell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Seaside - general discussion"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:34:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
Eastern
Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
I agree with Stef,
I moved my production code to Pharo last month and I've had no issue
reports.
I've loaded Seaside, MySql, and my own code.
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:36 AM, stephane ducasse
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Oct 29, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Taun wrote:
I think the real point Philippe made is a good one. It is not good
for the
Squeak/Smalltalk community to point a new user to an alpha
product. The new
user should be pointed to a stable functional platform so they can
concentrate on learning the language not the platform bugs.
Come on we are a good group of people using pharo daily and it has
less bugs
than squeak.
I know since I harvested the fixes.
Philippe's example of breakage was an example for why Pharo might
not be
good for Sergio.
I think that this is not true.
Do you think that a newcomer is not overhlem by the squeak menu!
As an additional example, I was using Pharo the other day and
while
testing one of my models, I discovered #timesRepeat: was broken.
I would be really amazed that timesRepeat: would be broken in
pharo.
Can you tell us, which version and how to reproduce that?
Imagine Sergio running some simple sample code loops and getting
the wrong
answer. What is that going to do to his newly forming opinion of
Squeak?
Again, these are not criticisms of Pharo, simply reasons why Pharo
might
not be the right tool for a beginning Squeak/Seaside user.
I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with the
new
browser of david and the clean menu.
Pharo will have much more tests than any squeak distro.
Pharo contains far less broken code than 3.9 or 3.10.
After the point is that we are working on it so when you update you
can get
some glitches.
But even with that I think that this is better than 3.9.
Stef
Taun
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Lienhard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Seaside - general discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:45:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
Eastern
Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
Pharo currently is in alpha, so its surprising you expect it to be
free of bugs. We are making a lot of progress, so sometimes a
change
breaks some unexpected functionality. Usually, though, this is
fixed
within few days. We will soon go to beta and then produce a
release
that is going to be maintained. That's where you can expect
stability.
Adrian
On Oct 27, 2008, at 17:25 , Philippe Marschall wrote:
2008/10/27 stephane ducasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Hi sergio
when you will be fit on the syntax and the environment. I
suggest
you to
take
the pharo image since it is really starting to get cleaner and
cleaner.
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/
I don't want to bash any of you but I have had some really bad
experiences with Pharo. Stuff like ClassBuilder exploding in my
face
and OmniBrowser not working.
Cheers
Philippe
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