On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > Hi Bill, > > no need to argue here. I'm on the same track. I think pharo is doing > it really well. I welcome all of these changes, too. My biggest > problem with pharo is that I don't have enough time to participate > more. > > I just thought I heard something like "Absolutely now reason to look > back..." and to this I can't agree.
Me too. We look back. I'm sad to see the state of image segment and a lot of cool infrastructure. I think that the infrastructure is key to help improving (for example the notification system introduced by roel...) having a more agile system should help idea and project to come to live and create a rich biotop. For example a real mop could be good for persistency, magritte like meta model..... > But I think I was a bit to > sensible in hearing anything bad :) And of course I don't want to > sound like any of these old complaints that made this project come > to live. So this shall be my excuse if it was taken as such. Don't worry. I think that on a regular basis we will raise the point to make sure people got the idea that we want the better for the better :) :) > > Norbert > > On Sun, 2009-06-21 at 18:21 -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> Norbert, >> >> There were many reasons to fork from Squeak, and the improvements >> in Pharo would not have been possible any other way. I share your >> frustration at the lack of compatibility between dialects. >> Necessity being the mother of invention (and in this case the >> motiviation for same), I have started chipping away at the problem >> between Dolphin and Pharo. So far, it is little more than a >> collection of facades and helper methods that should reduce the >> hassles of getting my Dolphin code to run on Pharo. When that is >> all that is required, I think we should strive to make such layers >> available. Being different merely for its own sake buys us little. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected] >> ] On Behalf Of Norbert Hartl >> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 5:27 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S >> >> On Sat, 2009-06-20 at 21:46 +0200, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> + 100000000 :) >>> >>> I want to invent a reasonable future :) >>> >> Your (Marcus and yours) mails sound a bit strange to me. Please let >> us not do this separation between academia and industria again. I >> don't think there is any option but to try to have both: stability >> and improvements. There should be a core that is as common as >> possible. And no, having a common core is not _the_ reason for not >> be able to change anything. For me that were the reasons to fork >> off from squeak. >> >> This dialect thing in smalltalk is really ridiculous. You cannot >> use such basic things like networking even across two different >> dialects. >> So you have to stay inside your own world/box. That is IMHO highly >> in- appropriate for these times. But I know some reasons why it is >> like this and that's the reason I can live with it. But there is >> room for improvement we should not miss. And I hope you can see >> that the support for basic technologies in smalltalk is way behind. >> The beauty and the strength of the language of smalltalk only lays >> within itself. >> >> Maybe I got you wrong but this mails triggered something in me so >> hence the more harsh tone :) >> >> Norbert >> >> On Jun 20, 2009, at 5:22 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 20.06.2009, at 10:52, Cameron Sanders wrote: >>>> >>>>> They could probably all learn from the other flavors. In fact, the >>>>> cross-smalltalk portability is a negative for smalltalk. >>>>> >>>>> I believe I tried smalltalk/X... that's the natively-compiled one, >>>>> right? So it feels like C++ if you change a root class -- or am I >>>>> confusing it with another? I'm on a new platform and can't check >>>>> what all I installed last year, at the moment. >>>>> >>>>> I like the idea of a compiled version!! And there would be a place >>>>> for it in my world, *if* I could take code from Pharo and load it >>>>> into say, Smalltalk/X, and have it work without a month-long >>>>> debugging session. >>>> >>>> One huge problem with compatibility is always that it reduces any >>>> possibility in evolving/improving the system. If the goal is to be >>>> compatible to e.g. >>>> all of Smalltalk X, Visualworks, Squeak, Gemstone.... than, in the >>>> end, this means we can not do anything anymore, and, most >>>> importantly: we can not do any *fun* things anymore. >>>> >>>> Beeing compatible means reducing what you do to the subset of all >>>> the dialects, and than stop doing anything. >>>> >>>> If I you should choose between a) "inventing the future" and b) "be >>>> compatible to VisualWorks", what would you take? >>>> >>>> And I personally have already choosen for the "inventing the >>>> future" >>>> route, I guess. It makes >>>> no sense to be in Research (and beeing payed those wonderful tiny >>>> salaries) and than do boring stuff. >>>> That makes no sense. >>>> >>>> I personally think that the possibility and duty of working on >>>> interesting things is part of the overall compensation package of >>>> people in Research. >>>> >>>> Marcus >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marcus Denker - http://marcusdenker.de PLEIAD Lab - Computer >>>> Science >>>> Department (DCC) - University of Chile >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
