Em 01/12/2010 18:50, Tudor Girba <[email protected]> escreveu:

> Hi,
>  I think I understand your point of view, but I do not agree with it
> :).

Fair enough!  During a debate automatic agreement would not lead to an
enriched vision of the problem and more often than not would diverge
from the truth :-)

>  Moose  is  a valuable  platform  exactly  because  it is  built  in
> Smalltalk.  

I understand this is the sentiment about Smalltalk.  Also, giving the 
project is 13+ years old makes me assume it has started in a different
dialect of Smalltalk than Pharo.
 
> Developers  understand the  power  of  Smalltalk in  the
> context  of  Moose   quite  quickly  after  they  do   a  couple  of
> tutorials.  

The key here, I think, is "in the context of Moose".  In my opinion the
litmus test for this would be evaluating how many projects _not_ related
to Moose are started in Smalltalk after this exposition occurred.

> The  result  is  that  they  end  up  wanting  to  learn
> Smalltalk.

Which per se is an interesting achievement.  However, we need it go 
beyond the wanting to learn to the opportunity to be the implementation
language of some new projects in their realms.

>  In fact, I  argued for quite a while that  vendors should use Moose
> to promote Smalltalk.  The cool thing about it  is that it addresses
> directly  programmers  that  develop   in  all  sorts  of  languages
> (especially Java). This gives us a nice back door.

I think again this is a variation of theme I mentioned in the earlier 
post.  The same has been said about Seaside, or other projects which I
perceive as successful as Moose (and written in Smalltalk, of course)!

I'm afraid we're missing something essential on this: what problem Pharo
(or more generally Smalltalk) addresses better in the enterprise than 
other technologies?

If we arrive at some compelling answers to this, then I believe it would
be easy to 'sell' Smalltalk.  The examples on the successful projects 
then would serve to reduce the perceived risk of embarking in an imature
technology.

my 0.019999...

Regards,

--
Cesar Rabak


>  Cheers, Doru
>
>  On 28 Nov 2010, at 18:48, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Tudor,
> > This  kind  of  report shows  that  Moose  is  a useful  piece  of
> > software.  The interest in  Pharo became  contingent on  the Moose
> > technology such as ABAP is 'widespread' in the industry because of
> > SAP ERP.
> > I think it says a lot about Moose, but is not enough to be a sales
> > argument for Pharo.
> > This leads to  a common fallacy used in marketing:  use "X" as all
> > successful people use "X" as well..."
> >

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