On 1/18/2012 12:19 AM, Friedrich Dominicus wrote:
Jimmie Houchin<[email protected]> writes:
I am all for improving our editing experience. But I want it in my
image and not in Emacs/vi. I would rather see our world improved than
to see it require an external editor which sees code as text, not
objects, where different external editors have differing features.
Well I suggest then to start with adding an Editor which deserves that
name. By all means the editors in any Smalltalk are poor. And now that
you mention Emacs. There is nothing comparable to this Editor for Text
editing in any Smalltalk world-wide. So yes you an live within the live
"objects!" but you have to leave them whenever you want to write
something more but 5 lines of code.
I will not state that our editors are perfect. But I have use Emacs. It
is horribly ugly. It doesn't know anything more about code than any
other editor that does not have the code running. I may be wrong. I am
okay with being proved wrong.
Ugly is a point I would like to make. It is not nearly as attractive as
most modern editors. But the community values other things and does not
find a priority to improve appearance simply for the reason of
appearance. Just like in Pharo there are priorities within the community
which are higher or lower than those from the outside might place them
based on their values. And as in most open source communities the
priority that is getting the work is the one that the worker has
prioritized higher. Ultimately it is the people doing the work whose
values are count.
And yes, I am thoroughly pro Pharo. Do I believe there are
deficiencies. Yes. I just don't believe the GUI being non-standard,
the image, and the editor being in the image are not among them. And I
don't believe that challenges to those things should go unchallenged
and accepted just because somebody
Ah yes another thing which would be nice to have something with one can
understand without studying it for years and repeated tries. A simple
way of building somewhat resembling GUI applications in Pharo/Squeak. Ah
yes flame me that I do appreciate the fantastic Morph world. It's so
fantastic that just the developers can build a somewhat "usable"
interface with it. Tell me about the "great" applications using Morph
(anything besides yet another Browser please)
This I don't understand. I am far from a computer science expert. I am
not a professional programmer. I am simply a business man who deals with
people all day long for a living. But I find Squeak/Pharo/Smalltalk the
most friendly environment for doing thing that I have found.
This may be because I have never brought into the Smalltalk world a host
of preconceptions of what editor I required, or how programming was
supposed to be. And I am far from being an expert Smalltalker or know
all of the little inside details that make everything run. I am happy to
have an Igor, Stef, Elliot, Levente, etc. to handle all of the things I
don't understand. And I am happy to ask question on how to accomplish
the things I don't understand but need to do.
And yes, I am just as opinionated about my perceptions of the
deficiencies of Python, Clojure, Ruby, Eclipse, Netbeans, ...
Or my frustrations when using them.
I just don't go into those communities expecting them to shape their
favorite tool to my vision. I rather try to use their tools and
attempt to learn their values and ways, assuming they have reason and
purpose for their language and tools.
Well at least you get an Editor with Eclipse and Netbeans. But yeah we
don't need not stinking Editor.
But an editor isn't the whole picture. It is a part. As the developer of
my applications I (as does anyone else) get to choose the tools used to
develop the app. I value the integration of the IDE with the language
and environment. You value the independence of the IDE from the language
and vm/repl/interpreter/... more than I do.
The biggest problem is people visiting a community and believing they
have the right to speak into that community. If you want that right,
spend some time here. Develop community relations. Then in time you
earn that right to be heard.
>
He has all the right to write what he wants. You have to cope with that,
you can agree or disagree. That's up to you but you are not the ape at
the door to prohibit his entry.
And I never said that he didn't. See below.
I never prohibited anybody's entrance or limited what they said.
I just didn't let it go unchallenged as if I or this community agreed
with what was said and believed it was true.
He gave his opinion. I gave mine. Fine, not a problem.
Whatever value either opinion has, is able to survive a healthy
discussion. Either whole or in part.
I have limited rights to be heard here because I have been a part of
the Squeak/Pharo community for a long time. I have less rights than
others because I haven't contributed anything of consequence. Others
who have been here far less time but have contributed a lot more, have
greater rights.
>
This is poor attitude. Just imagine Denis Ritchie would come here, with
no experience of Smalltalk at all. Wouldn't he have the right to state
his opinion?
Ok. You are misunderstanding me here. My apologies for not being more clear.
Yes, anybody can speak and offer their opinion. You are. I am. Others
did. But speaking does not mean it is received. This is all about the
human dynamic and community dynamics.
A person's ideas are received by either the merit of the ideas and their
agreement with the communities goals, ideals or philosophies. Or if they
challenge the communities goals, ideals or philosophies by the authority
or credibility of the proposer to speak into the community based upon
that persons relationship to the community.
But the ideas simply because they are offered doesn't mean they are
accepted and don't go through some discussion and vetting.
Every community (or person) has core values and philosophies. How well a
person is received is determined by their ability to defend their ideas
*and/or* their authority/respect/relationship to the community.
Stef/Guido/Larry/(insert favorite benevolent dictator or committee)/...
can overrule anyone within their communities without any defense other
than who they are. Their opinions carry weight beyond any defense of
argument. When they exercise this authority, it doesn't mean their
arguments are without merit. Just that a consensus was not found. And
the community accepts it.
Opinions were offered. Discussion ensued. That's all.
Jimmie
