Dne 16. 10. 2012 12:10, piše dimitris chloupis: > I dont have the habbit of making general claims or expressing general > opinion when it come to coding which is a practical field. > > My 2 areas of interest is sound synthesis and graphics. Apple has > promised html5 as the replacement to flash technology. Flash is mainly a > desktop technology masked as web technology . Html5 is still extremely > slow, at least some comparison I have tried. Webgl is partially > supported and very much slow still. Library wise for graphics I could > find maybe 4, 5 libraries to work with Javascript. Javascript is a > programming language like anything else but many of the technologies I > need to learn like DOM , XML , hmtl etc look weird , ugly and not that > useful compared to my experience with for example morphic or desktop gui > and graphic libraries. I know a few web developers they do complain a > lot about the state of web technology in general and the problems that > have to deal with. > > Especially in graphics and audio field, library wise desktop and the web > are like night and day. > > And all that for js , which is the good case as soon as we enter php and > drupal territory the horror stories just explode. I had my share of bad > experiences , C++ MFC was also a nightmare to manage but back then > things coding wise were not as complex they are today. I brought > facebook as an example because not talking about facebook while talking > about web is like talking about OS and not talking about windows. > > I have not any doubts that a capable coder will be able to make an > exceptional good web application. Afterall I use one , dropbox , and I > just would not want to live without it because it safe guards all my > work documents. So my point was not that web development is not good, or > that is not that future. My point is that with the state of web > libraries, we will see more and more desktop languages and libraries > penetrating the web (python and webgl for example) to that extend that > web will be nothing more than extension of desktop development. If some > choose to state that as web development , thats great for them , its not > for me. > > When I see for example smalltalk , I see a language that is pretty much > unknown yet its the language that is the most copied from by any kind of > technology. Innovative products don't become popular but they do drive > the future behind the curtains. Popular products tend to take all the > credit but contribute almost nothing. > > My only concern is if we try to make smalltalk fit the style of the web, > wont that mean that we compromise the quality of smalltalk libraries ? > If we try to make desktop comply with web standards wont that lower the > bar ? Would not be much better if we just port well proven desktop > technologies to the web as it is already hapenning ( see WebGL) ? > > I dont have a doubt that HMTL5 will have a long future . I dont have a > doubt that Web technology will improve , JS for example has come a long > way. I do think already web development is overtaken by desktop > development in many fields, mainly because its not prudent to just throw > to the bin all those well proven desktop technologies. We just make sure > they work in browser. > > I continue learning JS (amber too) and web technologies and I hope for > the best. I only wanted to present a point of view that is rarely seen > when someone talks about the web and . I Feel I am not the only one > frustrated with the direction web is taking, its not an infancy problem > its a problem of very bad foundation and coding style. Its something I > experienced a lot while coding in C++ and Java. It may be just me and I > dont mind if someone will disagree with me. > > I am also happy that smalltalk creates its own web libraries that do > follow closely the standards set by the language itself. I only hope > that continues.
This is exactly what we should IMHO continue to do. That is, to cultivate the wild web with Smalltalk elegance and beauty :) Best regards Janko > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Janko Mivšek <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Cc:* Aida/Web general discussion list <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 12:29 > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js > everywhere > > Hi Dimitris, > > I wont judge the success of the web approach just by few failed > attempts, (and by Facebook :). Web technologies certainly have a > potential to replace GUI ones on the desktop and became an universal UI > technology. Universal in the sense that it run everywhere, on all > platforms, you don't need to care about native look&feel, no need to > program for Android, then for iOS, then for Win mobile, etc. Universal > also in sense that it covers 99% of apps, while for remaining 1% we will > still develop in native environments. > > And this replacing is actually happening with faster and faster speed. > Even Microsoft finally gave up and announce to support web trio (HTML5, > CSS, JS) in Windows 8. Two years ago they even announced that web trio > will remain their only technology for the client. > > We are yet at the beginning of that process, web app development is > still in its infancy comparing to GUI ones. Adequate dev.tools are > lacking. And there are always a risk that some technology goes the wrong > way, as went for instance SOA (Service Oriented Arcitecture), XML also, > Java, etc. HTML5 is currently such a fast growing thing that it can goes > the same path and end up just too complex to use. As in case of SOA or XML. > > But on the other hand web browser vendors are incredible cooperative > this time, they usually don't just agree on some bad and complex > compromise (as it was case on SOA and XML) but are successful to find > the best and specially, the simplest API at the end. This gives us a big > hope that HTML5 will have a long future and to actually become an > universal UI. Well, JavaScript, here the story is more complex... > > Best regards > Janko > > Dne 16. 10. 2012 09:55, piše dimitris chloupis: >> Frankly , I don't find web development that much useful and certainly >> don't believe that web is the future. My money is on the desktop. >> >> The very fact that the most popular web app, by far nowdays is facebook >> and the very fact that if you took facebook out today people would lose >> nothing in practicality tells so much about what web is all about. Web >> is not all bad of course, its still without any doubt the library of >> Alexandria but most of it , its just pointless way of killing your free >> time. >> >> The trend is to push web to the desktop and I think that has been proven >> a very bad idea. Web technology is based on some very bad design >> decisions and it makes me laugh when technologies like node.js take the >> web world by storm when desktop has similar technologies for far too long. >> >> If you looks carefully you will also see that Desktop is more and more >> pushing to the web, so for me it looks like web development is not going >> to have much of a chance. Many existing programming languages are >> already compiling to js, but even in that case why even bother ? IT >> makes sense for mobile devices , but what will happen if for example >> pharo and squeak start making ports for those mobile devices . Why >> bother with JS at all ? >> >> I try to make a visual coding project and I did consider amber and some >> js libraries and to my surprise the only dynamic graphic library I found >> of some serious usefulness was processing.js and its just too slow for >> what I want to achieve. And if you think about all those so called web >> technologies are really sandboxed , limited and slow desktop technologies. >> >> I still find the fact that a browser can run anywhere extremely tempting >> but in the end I dont think its really worth it. And yes I disagree with >> the video of trying to say that web is like electricity. When >> electricity came out there was nothing like it, with the web its very >> diffirent because not only desktop can do many of the things that web >> can , all web technologies are practically desktop technologies. Also >> even if you take a look at how much Desktop has progressed 10 years and >> how much the web , even though the web is super hyped those past 10 >> years you will get a very clear picture of how things really are. >> >> I dont think squeak or pharo should turn their backs to the web >> technologies , js and all others (and I love the fact that projects like >> amber do exist) but I would prefer if more effort is spent on making >> sure that they work on all platforms equally good. >> >> From where I am standing there is no competitiveness in usefulness when >> it comes to JS and web technology there is just competitiveness in >> popularity and hype. And I would rather prefer if pharo and squeak dont >> play that game and continue being actually useful , innovative , easy to >> use , technologies. Web is certainly tempting but in the end its an >> empty promise. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* "[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> >> *To:* [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Monday, 15 October 2012, 23:02 >> *Subject:* [Pharo-project] A trend and an unfair comparison about js >> everywhere >> >> Hi guys, >> >> all comparisons are unfair I know but this is only to make you guy aware >> of this (please ignore if you're already). >> >> Here is the thing: >> >> The Jeff Bezos' Electricity Metaphor: >> http://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_bezos_on_the_next_web_innovation.html >> >> Makes (probably) any smalltalker remember the Alan Kay's talk about >> having in the internet an IP for every object and spectacular computer >> science ideas like that. >> >> The js everywhere trend makes a lot of sense. Once it achieves critical >> mass it might tempt intel and friends to do some hardware accelerator >> for js VM's. Who knows. We have a long way to go but, in the meantime, >> all js staked frameworks make a lot of sense and WILL get traction >> because of that. Example: >> >> http://www.wakanda.org/ >> >> A talk here: >> https://vimeo.com/31603156 >> >> So.. the unfair question here would be: >> >> What we'll have to match that competitiveness? >> >> sebastian >> >> o/ >> >> PS: Pharo + WebSockets + Amber sounds in that line doesn't? >> >> >> > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Aida/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si <http://www.aidaweb.si/> > > > -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si
