Even though I agree with your Igor , text editing is not per se required by existing smalltalk users, though even that is debatable, introducing vim and emacs mapping, in a completely optional state, will be definitely a motivation for vim and emacs user to join pharo. For example if you enter the pharo channel in irc you will be happy to find one person talking to himself, squeak channel more or less the same. Both #emacs and #vim show how popular both of these text editors are, why not pharo attract that crowd. Let me throw a crazy idea on the table why smalltalk cannot be a more ultimate text editor than those. Sure its ton of work and definetly you or I should not do , but I am sure if we provide minimum means of people to do this we will see more and more people porting vim and emacs features to pharo.
Also your point that we dont need text editing that much in pharo , is vaild from one side, however you should not forget that even though vim and emacs might appear radically diffirent from pharo those diffirences are skin deep. All of them have IDE tools , code navigation tools, debuging tools etc ... so I am not that convinced that for example using system browsers via shortcuts cannot be improved. I am actually in the process of learning elisp code to port some of the features of emacs to pharo. ________________________________ From: Igor Stasenko <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 20:13 Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Vim Keys? On 30 November 2012 18:23, ☈king <[email protected]> wrote: > On 11/30/2012 10:48 AM, Marcus Denker wrote: >> I am sure the Emacs user will be violently against it. > > Actually, that's the thing: Namespacing. > > You could install vi keys on emacs and an emacs user would never notice > without hitting the Escape key. > > Emacs keys, on the other hand, *do* conflict with existing Pharo bindings. > >> Another thing is that I personally think that one of the things that >> Smalltalk >> did very early is to not have modes for editing… >> >> Are editing modes really something people want in 2012? > > Think of modes as a monkey that sits by your keyboard. > > Every time you bop him on the head (that is, you hit Escape), he > obediently reaches over and holds down a special keyboard modifier for > you, and continues to do so until you tell him to stop. > > Since bopping him on the head takes no more time than hitting the > modifier key itself, hitting [Bop],[Key] is always going to be an > equally concise way of entering a string of commands compared to > chording [Modifier+Key]. But generally it's more concise, because you > tend to do big sequences of one or the other: edit a bunch, or input a > bunch. That is, in real life you do [Bop],[Key],[Key2],[Key],[Key3], > which is better than > [Modifier1+Key],[Modifier2+Key2],[Modifier1+Key],[Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Modifier+TurboDrive+Footpedal+☝+Key3] > well, what you explaining here is not just about handling keyboard typing, but also requires changes in UI (showing command line, black & white color scheme, 80x25 text mode ;) ) etc.. i think, if vi would contest for "best obscure editor", i guess it would get 1st prize. i don't really care why you like it , just can you (or someone else) explain me, why you think it is best possible way of doing things? Since i can't see it. What exactly commands/shortcuts you wanna have there? And wouldn't it be better to focus UI design towards avoiding the need for shortcuts/modes alltogether? Also, i going to repeat same over again: we don't need a full-fledged text editor(s) in smalltalk IDE. In smalltalk you will find yourself rarely need to edit more than 10 lines of code at time. From that perspective, do you think it is wise to invest people's energy into that? I think it should be a call for those who miss it: if you want it - make it. After all, you can run vi/emacs/<put your favorite> in separate window, and can always copy-paste text between, and enjoy your lovely keyboard shortcuts. Sorry, maybe i miss something and don't see full picture, but i really don't understand what is so cool in having vi/emacs shortcuts in pharo.. > > The critical point is that users that don't enter command mode would > never be bothered by it. Users who do stumble upon it could get an > additional leg up with the help text, and they don't even really have to > know it's "Vi Keys", just that it's a non-chorded interface. > > I know it's radical, but that's how we roll. (Right?) > > —☈ > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
