Sometimes I think we should treat globals more in a “late bound” fashion.
e.g. right now we say that “Undeclared” vars are to be avoided at any cost.
But we could just treat them like we treat messages that are send that do not
exist.
Forcing “#classNamed: “ for all unknown globals is a bit similar than forcing
to use “perform:” for
all unknown selectors.
e.g. why have Smalltalk at: #SomeClass and react to it if you could instead
reason on the fact that
a variable is not bound (yet).
SomeGlobal ifUndefined: [ ].
This way we would not obscure the fact that we are accessing a global and we
model explicitly the state
if it is bound or not.
Would that no be better than hiding it behind an API to look up symbols?
(just some thoughts, needs more thinking before action is possible)
Marcus
> On 11 Feb 2018, at 22:12, Richard Sargent
> <richard.sarg...@gemtalksystems.com> wrote:
>
> There are two use cases that come immediately to mind. They may be the two
> most important.
>
> "As a Compiler, I need to be able to resolve a Symbol to a known Object."
> "As a Browser, I need to be able to identify the possible resolutions of a
> String to known Objects."
>
>
> I can elaborate on those, but I think they are pretty clear no matter what
> scopes, namespaces, environments, modules, or whatever one uses to organize
> things in the image. (One can even imagine an external registry of names that
> could be searched and yield up suggestions of external packages that would be
> needed.)
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisi...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dionisi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> 2018-02-11 21:08 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.s...@gmail.com
> <mailto:stepharo.s...@gmail.com>>:
> Denis
>
> we should introduce classNamed: now we can have traits and globals too :(
>
> Yes, we need to think about it.
>
> Idea? may be can still classNamed:
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisi...@gmail.com
> <mailto:dionisi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2018-02-11 20:36 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.mora...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:hernan.mora...@gmail.com>>:
> >>
> >> 2018-02-11 16:10 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisi...@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:dionisi...@gmail.com>>:
> >> > Hi Hernan.
> >> >
> >> > 2018-02-11 19:57 GMT+01:00 Hernán Morales Durand
> >> > <hernan.mora...@gmail.com <mailto:hernan.mora...@gmail.com>>:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Denis
> >> >>
> >> >> 2018-02-10 15:18 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisi...@gmail.com
> >> >> <mailto:dionisi...@gmail.com>>:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 2018-02-10 20:59 GMT+03:00 Stephane Ducasse
> >> >> > <stepharo.s...@gmail.com <mailto:stepharo.s...@gmail.com>>:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Please to not use an unary on Symbol
> >> >> >> Dispatch on something.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> >> is the best
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > We should not use collection API for reflection calls. It makes them
> >> >> > very
> >> >> > difficult to find. Let's use explicit names like:
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry I do not see it.
> >> >>
> >> >> The Collection API is beautiful, why couldn't be used for reflection?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > We have around 3000 senders of #at: message in the image. Do you think
> >> > it is
> >> > easy to filter reflective calls?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I still don't understand your use case, nor how the #at: is related
> >> with the #asClass issue.
> >>
> >> Do you mean **further** filtering for relflective sends?
> >>
> >> Does this affects common-usage beyond Browser development?
> >
> >
> > The Stef proposal was that we should never use #asClass in the code. It is
> > fine for scripting but not for the domain code by many reasons which were
> > discussed here and at the past.
> >
> > But I only commented the proposed replacement:
> >
> > self class environment at: #Object
> >
> >
> > If you do not like it, it is different story. I just described problem with
> > #at: message:
> >
> > We already replaced many #asClass users with this code. And now it is quite
> > difficult to find such places. They all hidden inside 3000 senders of #at:.
> > If we will use #classNamed: instead of #at: then simple senders query will
> > easily detect all reflective calls.
> > (we probably already use it but not in all places).
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I have no trouble finding #asClass senders, implementors, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> What do you want to find?
> >> >>
> >> >> > self class environment classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Too much typing :)
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From the other side we all agree that #asClass is super handy method.
> >> >> > And we
> >> >> > can fix it to respect sender environment using thisContext. It will
> >> >> > affects
> >> >> > performance but with our super powerful metalinks it can be easily
> >> >> > cached
> >> >> > (#asMethodConst is implemented that way).
> >> >> > So we can make environment completely transparent for users.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Best regards,
> >> >> > Denis
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For Modules, we made progress and got bitten by many issues and
> >> >> >> teaching
> >> >> >> load.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Stef
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Clément Bera
> >> >> >> <bera.clem...@gmail.com <mailto:bera.clem...@gmail.com>>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:34 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> >> >> >> > <hernan.mora...@gmail.com <mailto:hernan.mora...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Hi Clément,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> First time I read about modules in Pharo.
> >> >> >> >> What is a module exactly?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> What's the problem to solve?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > It's similar to namespaces with some different, arguably better,
> >> >> >> > features.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Honestly I am not the expert on it so I would like some one else
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > answer.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Among other things, it solves the problem of having 2 classes with
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > same
> >> >> >> > name (avoiding the prefixes we have like in C). But reportedly
> >> >> >> > that's
> >> >> >> > just a
> >> >> >> > side-effect and not the main problem to solve.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Hernán
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 2018-02-10 9:47 GMT-03:00 Clément Bera <bera.clem...@gmail.com
> >> >> >> >> <mailto:bera.clem...@gmail.com>>:
> >> >> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > In short, everything that is not namespace/module compatible
> >> >> >> >> > will
> >> >> >> >> > be
> >> >> >> >> > deprecated/changed/removed in the future, so it is not
> >> >> >> >> > recommended
> >> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> >> > use
> >> >> >> >> > it.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >> >> >> > b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >> >> >> > => Ok-ish, note that you may need to change 'Smalltalk globals'
> >> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> >> > namespace/module when support for those will be added since
> >> >> >> >> > Array
> >> >> >> >> > will
> >> >> >> >> > be in
> >> >> >> >> > a module.
> >> >> >> >> > Maybe you want instead to use instead:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > c) self class environment at: #Array
> >> >> >> >> > => this will work in the future if your code is a class which
> >> >> >> >> > environment/namespace/module includes the Array class you would
> >> >> >> >> > expect
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > a.1) #Array asClass
> >> >> >> >> > b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> >> >> >> > b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >> >> > => In which namespace/module are you looking for #Array ? In
> >> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> >> > future
> >> >> >> >> > this
> >> >> >> >> > may be removed, alternatively it will work only for globals but
> >> >> >> >> > not
> >> >> >> >> > globals
> >> >> >> >> > inside namespace/module which won't work since Array will be in
> >> >> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> >> > module.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Peter Uhnák
> >> >> >> >> > <i.uh...@gmail.com <mailto:i.uh...@gmail.com>>
> >> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Hi,
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> what is the canonical way to get a class from a symbol?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> a) Converting symbol into class via string protocol
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> a.1) #Array asClass
> >> >> >> >> >> I use this the most, because it is easy, uses unary selector,
> >> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> >> so
> >> >> >> >> >> far
> >> >> >> >> >> I've never ran into any issues. But apparently it is not good
> >> >> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> >> >> why?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> a.2) #Array asClassInEnvironment: Smalltalk globals
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> b) Retriving the class by key from the system dictionary
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> b.1) Smalltalk globals at: #Array
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> b.2) Smalltalk at: #Array
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> b.3) Smalltalk classNamed: #Array
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> c) something else entirely?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> I get that using #asClass wouldn't work if there was a
> >> >> >> >> >> different
> >> >> >> >> >> environment, however I don't even know in what situation there
> >> >> >> >> >> could
> >> >> >> >> >> be
> >> >> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> >> different environment, so I cannot assert how problematic it
> >> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> >> or
> >> >> >> >> >> isn't.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> >> >> >> Peter
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> >> > Clément Béra
> >> >> >> >> > Pharo consortium engineer
> >> >> >> >> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> >> >> >> >> > <https://clementbera.wordpress.com/>
> >> >> >> >> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d
> >> >> >> >> > <https://maps.google.com/?q=40,+avenue+Halley+59650+Villeneuve+d%27Ascq&entry=gmail&source=g>'Ascq
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > <https://maps.google.com/?q=40,+avenue+Halley+59650+Villeneuve+d%27Ascq&entry=gmail&source=g>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > Clément Béra
> >> >> >> > Pharo consortium engineer
> >> >> >> > https://clementbera.wordpress.com/
> >> >> >> > <https://clementbera.wordpress.com/>
> >> >> >> > Bâtiment B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d
> >> >> >> > <https://maps.google.com/?q=40,+avenue+Halley+59650+Villeneuve+d%27Ascq&entry=gmail&source=g>'Ascq
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > <https://maps.google.com/?q=40,+avenue+Halley+59650+Villeneuve+d%27Ascq&entry=gmail&source=g>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
>
>
