Hey, Just wanted to say thanks everyone for the compliments and for the constructive feedback.
If there's any more clarifications in the spec that you feel are *not* tight enough please continue to raise here or make a PR so we can review it. Many thanks, Paul On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Nicolas Grekas <nicolas.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > PSR-6 makes it very clear that the expiration date/interval is really a > maximum and that implementations are free to make the actual item removal > happen anytime before. > Actually, memcached kind of proved that *for the cache use case*, it can > be verify effective to let the backend clean items use LRU or similar. > If PSR-6, or 16 now, would have added a requirement for storages to be > able to store items that never expires, that would have immediately > disqualified these strategies and related backends. > > Which means to me eveything is already fine for the cache use case. > > But this also means that PSR-6/16 are NOT fine for non-cache related use > cases (e.g. session storage on PSR-6 is a BAD idea exactly because of this). > > Regards, > Nicolas > > > 2016-11-18 4:54 GMT-05:00 Jordi Boggiano <j.boggi...@seld.be>: > >> I will try to add it to the meta document or maybe add more text to the >> spec regarding this default expiration. I think that's the best way to make >> people aware of it. >> >> That said, the symfony cache I mentioned for example, is a PSR-6 >> implementation, and will most likely implement PSR-16, while letting you >> have items that don't expire if you use NULL. You just don't get that >> guarantee at the spec level, I see that. >> >> Cheers >> >> On 17/11/2016 21:21, Andrew Carter wrote: >> >>> I don't agree with the decision, but I understand the trade off. >>> >>> What we're trading is the ability to set a default value in the cache >>> configuration at the cost of not having an interoperable way for >>> developers to create items which don't expire. >>> >>> From what I can tell, the PSR-6 API that we are both replacing and >>> trying to maintain compatibility with (?) is the only cache that >>> operates in this manner. Most other caches operate with a NULL or 0 TTL >>> corresponding to an entry that doesn't have a natural expiry time: apc >>> <http://php.net/manual/en/function.apc-store.php>, memcache >>> <http://php.net/manual/en/memcached.expiration.php>, redis >>> <http://redis.io/commands/persist>, xcache >>> <https://xcache.lighttpd.net/wiki/XcacheIni>, doctrine >>> <http://doctrine-orm.readthedocs.io/projects/doctrine-orm/en >>> /latest/reference/caching.html#saving>, >>> >>> the symfony one you mentioned, etc.. >>> >>> This is my last post on the subject, but I'd like whoever calls the vote >>> to make sure that this decision and the existence of our discussion has >>> been made clear to the voting members. I'm not sure if there's any >>> requirement for the voting threads to draw attention to this - but I >>> think that would be a good precedent to set if not. >>> >>> My last post on the subject as I think we understand each other, just >>> disagree on the outcome. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 7:09:15 PM UTC, Jordi Boggiano wrote: >>> >>> I see what you mean, but down the line it doesn't actually matter as >>> it >>> is merely a cache. >>> >>> You can never rely on anything you store in there being there when >>> you >>> want to read it again, no matter what expiration you set. The backend >>> might be full and wiping stuff early, etc. All you can do is >>> *request* >>> that something be stored for a given amount of time. >>> >>> Given that fact I think that the null as it is now is kinda ok, it >>> lets >>> an application developer if they so wish configure their lib to make >>> all >>> cache entries expire after X hours by default, or they can say no >>> actually keep everything forever unless otherwise specified, or if >>> you >>> have specific needs as a library author you can give specific >>> expiration >>> times. It adds a tiny bit of control for the app developer, and >>> doesn't >>> really remove anything from lib developers as they can anyway not >>> rely >>> on any guarantee from the cache. >>> >>> Does this make sense to you? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Jordi >>> >>> On 17/11/2016 18:43, Andrew Carter wrote: >>> > Not sure I fully understand that - as a user I can't rely on common >>> > sense implementations doing it right. If it's not part of the >>> standard, >>> > I can't guarantee it as a feature and I can't use it. >>> > >>> > My only course of action for using that feature would be tightly >>> > coupling to a cache library that did support items which don't >>> expire, >>> > and losing interoperability (as I have done in the past). >>> > >>> > On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 4:15:21 PM UTC, Jordi Boggiano >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > This was carried over from PSR-6 tbh, and my understanding is >>> that "an >>> > Implementing Library MAY use a configured default duration" >>> means you >>> > can very well treat null as "do not expire ever". >>> > >>> > If you read the symfony cache docs for example [1], it shows >>> that by >>> > default they treat it that way, and I'd expect others do that >>> too but I >>> > havent' researched in depth. >>> > >>> > As such I am ok leaving it as is because the common-sense >>> > implementations will do it right, and it doesn't warrant >>> breaking away >>> > from PSR-6 IMO. >>> > >>> > Cheers >>> > >>> > [1] >>> > >>> https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/cache/cache_items >>> .html#cache-item-expiration >>> <https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/cache/cache_item >>> s.html#cache-item-expiration> >>> >>> > >>> <https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/cache/cache_item >>> s.html#cache-item-expiration >>> <https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/cache/cache_item >>> s.html#cache-item-expiration>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > On 16/11/2016 17:03, Andrew Carter wrote: >>> > > Good work. >>> > > >>> > > One thing that always bothered me from a user perspective >>> was not >>> > being >>> > > able to put an item in the cache that doesn't expire >>> (different >>> > from a >>> > > default expiration time). Having to create times really far >>> in >>> > advance >>> > > is messy, and you never know if you're going to run into >>> 2038 bugs >>> > etc. >>> > > It's also quite common to have an entry that you don't want >>> to >>> > expire, >>> > > because you'll invalidate it yourself or wait for the cache >>> to >>> > drop it >>> > > when it's full. >>> > > >>> > > For me, saying that a NULL ttl means some default value >>> somewhere >>> > is a >>> > > waste of a feature. If I wanted a default value, my code can >>> (and >>> > > should) explicitly take care of that. I think documenting >>> NULL to >>> > mean >>> > > "This item doesn't expire. If the cache driver doesn't not >>> support >>> > items >>> > > that do not expire, the ttl will be set to the maximum >>> possible." >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > >>> > > Andrew >>> > > >>> > > On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 2:22:20 PM UTC, Jordi >>> Boggiano >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Heya, >>> > > >>> > > We believe PSR-16, Simple Cache, is now ready for final >>> > review. As >>> > > coordinator, I hereby open the mandatory review period >>> prior to a >>> > > formal >>> > > acceptance vote; voting will begin no earlier than >>> December >>> > 1st, 2016. >>> > > >>> > > Here are links to the most current version and its meta >>> document: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c6674764 >>> 0c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md> >>> >>> > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md> >>> >>> > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache.md>>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c6674764 >>> 0c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md> >>> >>> > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md> >>> >>> > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/1cf169c667476 >>> 40c6bc7fb5097d84fbafcd00a0c/proposed/simplecache-meta.md>>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > The package containing the interfaces is there: >>> > > >>> > > https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache> >>> > <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache>> >>> > > <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache> >>> > <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache>>> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > The latest important changes to the interfaces can be >>> found at: >>> > > >>> > > >>> https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0 >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0> >>> > <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0 >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0>> >>> > > >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0 >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0> >>> > <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0 >>> <https://github.com/php-fig/simplecache/releases/tag/0.2.0>>> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > And FWIW, Scrapbook already provides a PSR-16 >>> implementation >>> > in its >>> > > upcoming release: >>> > > >>> > >>> https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src/ >>> Psr16/SimpleCache.php >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php> >>> >>> > >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php> >>> >>> > >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php >>> <https://github.com/matthiasmullie/scrapbook/blob/master/src >>> /Psr16/SimpleCache.php>>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Thanks for your time reviewing! >>> > > >>> > > Cheers >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Jordi Boggiano >>> > > @seldaek - http://seld.be >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> Google >>> > > Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>> from it, >>> > send >>> > > an email to php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> >>> > > <mailto:php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>. >>> > > To post to this group, send email to php...@googlegroups.com >>> > <javascript:> >>> > > <mailto:php...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>. >>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > > >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a64 >>> -a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com> >>> >>> > >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer> >>> >>> > >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/2dadde75-0559-4a6 >>> 4-a77d-e13bbe1e5690%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer>>>. >>> >>> > >>> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout> >>> > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>>. >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Jordi Boggiano >>> > @seldaek - http://seld.be >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send >>> > an email to php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> >>> > <mailto:php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>. >>> > To post to this group, send email to php...@googlegroups.com >>> <javascript:> >>> > <mailto:php...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>. >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/21e8071e-c6a6-484d >>> -9a70-56413b336a0a%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/21e8071e-c6a6-484 >>> d-9a70-56413b336a0a%40googlegroups.com> >>> >>> > >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/21e8071e-c6a6-484 >>> d-9a70-56413b336a0a%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/21e8071e-c6a6-484 >>> d-9a70-56413b336a0a%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer>>. >>> >>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jordi Boggiano >>> @seldaek - http://seld.be >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>> To post to this group, send email to php-fig@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:php-fig@googlegroups.com>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/0c6b40bb-ae5a-4bd3 >>> -83f0-f617c8d0d4aa%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/0c6b40bb-ae5a-4bd >>> 3-83f0-f617c8d0d4aa%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_ >>> source=footer>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jordi Boggiano >> @seldaek - http://seld.be >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to php-fig@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms >> gid/php-fig/e7ad073d-7335-07db-3b79-9a5e4b566523%40seld.be. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to php-fig@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > msgid/php-fig/CAOWwgpnmDEvx6%3DZNC6QVi8-ODVHmOkoXj3mpCf1uO6m81Xd0HQ% > 40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/CAOWwgpnmDEvx6%3DZNC6QVi8-ODVHmOkoXj3mpCf1uO6m81Xd0HQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to php-fig@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/CAKxcST_j27J9Lw_bqvOpgBytmbc5W-fqUAJ3ermtRZ1zpUwQww%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
