Ashley Sheridan wrote:
On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 01:44 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote:
*haha* I've removed from the recipients list... so onwards to the content below...

Jochem Maas wrote:
> Op 2/10/10 9:08 PM, Robert Cummings schreef:
>> From the editor's draft:
>> "
>> The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of
>> content that is tangentially related to the content around the aside
>> element, and which could be considered separate from that content. Such
>> sections are often represented as sidebars in printed typography.
>> The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
>> sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other
>> content that is considered separate from the main content of the page.
>> "
>> Dear God, please don't suggest it be used for noise like sidebars,
>> advertising, or non related groups of nav elements. Asides are NOT often
>> represented AS sidebars in printed typography, they are often
>> represented IN sidebars of printed typography. This distinction is
>> fundamentally different.
>> I've never read a serious article where suddenly an aside is made where
>> it says:
>> An aside is tangential to the content (as in the working draft of the
>> spec), this means it is related in some way, usually enriching the
>> information/experience rather than watering it down with nonsense.
>> I beg you to reconsider your wording for this element's description.
> > as an aside, I think I'll wait until there is some general consensus on the
> actual constructive usage of this sort of tag until I use it - personally I
> really think this is too vague.
> > the concepts of what is structural, what is semantic and what is style are too
> mixed up and vague for me to worry, just yet, about the details of these 
> HTML5 tags (not mention browser support).
> > @Rob - your browswer compability 'hack' example in another recent thread is a
> perfect example or the problems we face with trying to delineate between 
styling and
> semantics and as such I think I lot of what HTML5 adds is arbitrary and rather
> vague (the CANVAS and video stuff not withstanding)
> > personally I don't give a hoot - browsers (and more importantly the users, and the
> various versions they run - and will be running for quite some time) mean 
> as fas as I'm concerned, HTML5 and everything it may entail is still a pipe 
> > As long as people run IE6 or IE7 (actually any POS browser that doesn't properly
> attempt to implement current standards) such things as semantically marked up 
> (as vague as the concept might) are rather irrelevant to the day to day 
business of
> building web sites/applications that accessible/relevant/usable/etc to the 
> public.

I can only somewhat agree with your assessment above. It is true that while many people still use broken browsers like IE6 and IE7; however, this should not completely dissuade us from improving the experience for those users that *do* choose standards compliant browsers. If we ignore those users because we don't see the point in wasting time on the IE* crowd, then we essentially weaken the argument in favour of embracing standards. While IE* Joe, doesn't give a damn about whether his browser supports <aside> or not, studious Jane really enjoys the enriched experience her browser provides because not only does it understand asides, but it provides a convenient extra facility that extracts them into a browsable list with excerpts taken from the surrounding text for context (inverting the relationship :). Then there's Jenny who's blind, she's listening to the content on the page and hears a little ding go off that indicates there's further information available that she can review-- she can choose to pull it up and listen to it, after which the reader returns to where she left off the original content. Alternatively she may choose not to interrupt the main flow of information, but again, similar to Jane's experience she can listen to each one afterwards in a summarized fashion.

This is how serious organizations, and almost certainly Government, will markup their information. Regardless of whether everyone has a browser that supports the information. If the semantic markup improves usability and enriches the information, then it will be used to meet that purpose.

> PS. from a semantics POV, Robert Cummings is, IMHO, spot on in his assessment 
- I do enjoy
> his posts, he's a sharp cookie with plenty to offer and I always enjoy 
reading his
> argumentation and opinion!

Thanks... You've got me blushing :D

Application and Templating Framework for PHP

I'd say that from what I've heard, Governments aren't that good at getting accessible sites up, so the chances of them using HTML5 semantically, well, the immediate future doesn't look too rosy!

Also, I thought I'd throw in my tuppence as to the use of <aside>. I'd tend to try and relate it to a footnote in a book, or a boxout in a magazine article. It's not integral to the content it's related to or near, but acts as an aid to it should the reader wish.

I don't know about where you are, but Canadian government has very specific guidelines on how content should be marked up... and semantic use of tags is a clear part of that:

    "The institution respects the universal accessibility
     guidelines developed by the World Wide Web Consortium's Web
     Accessibility Initiative by ensuring compliance of its Web
     sites with the Priority 1 and Priority 2 checkpoints of the
     Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (WCAG), with the
     following exception:

     WCAG  checkpoint 3.4 is superseded by requirement 2 of the
     Common Look and Feel Standards for the Internet, Part 3:
     Standard on Common Web Page Formats."


Reviewing some of the WCAG guidelines...

    3.3 Use style sheets to control layout and presentation.
        [Priority 2]

    3.5 Use header elements to convey document structure and
        use them according to specification. [Priority 2]

    3.6 Mark up lists and list items properly. [Priority 2]

    3.7 Mark up quotations. Do not use quotation markup for
        formatting effects such as indentation. [Priority 2]

    5.1 For data tables, identify row and column headers.
        [Priority 1]

    5.2 For data tables that have two or more logical levels
        of row or column headers, use markup to associate data
        cells and header cells. [Priority 1]

These are just the checkpoints, further reading into the checkpoints indicates that proper use of various tags such as <em>, <strong>, <abbr>, <acronym>, etc should be used.

This is meant to be followed by all Canadian Government websites and current hiring/contracting practices indicate experience with CLF2 guidelines as being a requirement.

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