Tommy Pham wrote:
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Robert Cummings <> wrote:
Tommy Pham wrote:
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Robert Cummings <>
Tommy Pham wrote:
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Per Jessen <> wrote:
Tommy Pham wrote:

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Per Jessen <> wrote:
Tommy Pham wrote:

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Per Jessen <>
Tommy Pham wrote:

What I find funny is that one of opponents of PHP threads earlier
mentioned that how silly it would be to be using C in a web app.
Now I hear people mentioning C when they need "productivity" or

I think I was the one to mention the latter, but as I started out
saying, and as others have said too, it's about the right tool for
the right job.  When choosing a tool, there are a number of factors
to consider - developer productivity, available skills, future
maintenance, performance, scalability, portability, parallelism,
performance etcetera.

Funny you should mention all that.  Let's say that you're longer
with that company, either by direct employment or contract
consultant. You've implemented C because you need 'thread'.  Now
your replacement comes in and has no clue about C even though your
replacement is a PHP guru.  How much headache is maintenance gonna
be?  Scalability? Portability? wow....
Who was the idi... who hired someone who wasn't suited for the job?
Tommy, that's a moot argument.  You can't fit a square peg in a round

Per Jessen, Zürich (12.5°C)

Suited for the job?  You mean introduce more complexity to a problem
that what could be avoided to begin with if PHP has thread support?
Tommy, it's perfectly simple:  in my company we hire people with C
skills for C programming jobs. We hire people with database skills to
be database administrators.  We hire people with Linux skills to work
on Linux systems.  We explicitly do _not_ hire PHP web-programmers to
maintain our C code.  And vice versa for that matter.  No problem, no

Per Jessen, Zürich (13.4°C)

That may just work out fine if you work directly for the company with
all the proper staffing.  But some of us work as consultants or for
companies without the proper staffing.  As such, let's dissect what
you mentioned:

1) PHP with internal thread support
2) PHP with external C/C++ thread support

* Performance - having external thread support, now you have to call
an extension (more memory usage and CPU cycles).  If you happen to
have a C/C++ guru who can then code that thread support into PHP
extension, wouldn't it still perform better at the core vs as an
extension because it's not talking to a 'middle man'?  Having said
that, not everyone has access to a C/C++ guru.  Thus not mass
Are you suggesting that you need to be a guru in C to write threaded C
I think the word you're looking for is competent.

* Portability - if you're currently running PHP on Windows, but manage
to convince management to switch to *BSD/Linux, then you'd have to
rewrite that external thread support.  But for us consultants, we may
have 1 project the runs on Windows, the next may be *BSD/Linux.  PHP
code snippets goes a lot further versus your custom work around.
* Managability - should your need to upgrade PHP for either bug fix,
new features you'd want to implement to add more functionality to your
site, will that then break your custom external solution?  How much
more manageable is it if it's done under 1 language versus 2+?
Are you suggesting cross platform thread libraries don't exist? I wonder
Apache does it... or MySQL... or any number of open source cross-platform
systems. If they implement their own, then by the virtue of the source
open, you can feel free to incorporate.

Application and Templating Framework for PHP

Suppose I have an idea and make it a project.  I'd then want to make
it open source and offer it to the world.  With your custom thread
solution, how much acceptance is it going to be for a decent PHP
programmer to implement versus something that's already in pure PHP.
Unzip/rar/tar > minor config for DB > Live.  How does that sound for
portability?  Now that you mention cross platform threading, do you
think you can take the MySQL compiled for linux and make it work under
BSD withouth BSD's linux binaries compatibility, nevermind Windows?
Have you looked at the source of PHP? For whatever OS PHP compiles
for, it uses the header library pertaining to that OS.  So if I want
to implement thread solution similar to Per's solution, I'd have to be
an expert at Windows, Linux, and *BSD just to make my PHP open source
project to be readily acceptable to the world.  I'll pass on that.
Many open source projects are itches being scratched. More often than not
you will not be alone in your desire to scratch. When that happens, and if
you're a good sort of chap or gal, then others will come along and help you
scratch. Soon, with the right kind of leadership and gameplan, you'll be
fully embroiled in a scratching orgy with key members scratching the right
part of the itch. Do you think one person writes all the compatibility stuff
for any of the above listed systems? No, there's just a lot of scratching

Application and Templating Framework for PHP

Then the process at which to implement requested features becomes a
crawl because now the project needs to consider the fact how some of
the requested features will it be affected on Windows, Linux, *BSD
versus on just how to realize (PHP coding) those features.  I don't
use Linux nor an expert in it but implementing custom thread solution
like that means understanding about SELinux vs AppArmor vs Grsecurity
or am I wrong?  Look at your project(s) now, if you take your PHP code
and deploy to other platforms that you're currently not using, how
portable is that?  If a particular project happens to depends on
platform/OS specifics, what then?

A crawl is better than a standstill. I have C extensions for PHP that work in both Linux and Windows. I didn't actually have to do anything special since I used very standard C code. A threading library is probably a bit of a different beast, but I wouldn't doubt cross platform libraries exist. In fact a quick google of "cross platform C threading" brought up the following Apache Portable Runtime Project:

This has a thread module:

And so the major legwork is already done. The thing about PHP is that the PHP core is purportedly thread safe, in fact they even list a thread-safe version. The problem is that the extensions and libraries upon which the extensions are based are very often NOT thread safe. And so if your PHP code doesn't plan on making use of these libraries then using threads in PHP shouldn't be an issue. But first you need ot get an extension going. There appears ot have been a threads extension on PECL at one point, but it doesn't appear to be accessible anymore.

Application and Templating Framework for PHP

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