I agree with you about H1B visas, Keith. In the past, I found myself in a situation in which I was a legal US citizen working with a team mostly made up of H1B visa holders. It was not a good situation to be in.
I would be glad to discuss details privately since I can't say much in this mailing list without getting very not politically correct. On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 9:48 PM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > Yes, this may be a Linux list, but most of us have worked with or around > people with H1B visas since the computing field attracts perhaps the > largest number of such visa holders. > > Congress does tweak things from time to time, and I’ve been out of the > corporate loop for a few years now, so some details may be outdated. But > for the most part, changes to immigration laws are few and far between. > > These people are employed by two distinct groups: either large companies, > like IBM, MS, Apple, Google, eBay, etc; or small job shops that are > typically run by a friend or extended family member from their home country > that has set up a “job shop” and hired some people on H1B status so they > can come to America. > > There are some distinctions I skimmed over in my post since most people > don’t know many details. > > A foreigner needs a visa to come to America. As a student, they have one > type of visa. If they are attending school here, they will probably > interview for a job. If they get a job offer, it’s usually contingent on > them getting an H1B visa, and that’s done by the company that wants to hire > them. This company is also their “sponsor”, which all visas require. Each > visa has a limited lifetime, and some can be renewed. If you’re on a > student visa and want to change your visa (rather than extend it), you > typically have to go back to your home country and deal with it there. > > There used to be a requirement that students to go back to their home > country after graduating for two years, but perhaps that has been changed. > They still have to go back to change their visa, but that can be done > fairly quickly. > > Once an H1B visa has been granted, along with a work permit, and the > person has become employed, they usually want to file for a "Green Card", > which is what takes the longest time. Until their GC is either approved or > denied, they’ll need to keep renewing their visa every few years, which > will be done by their employer / sponsor. Once they get their GC, their > visa expires. If they leave their employer/sponsor or any reason, their > visa expires. If they’re arrested for some kinds of criminal activities, > their visa can be cancelled. If they leave the country without a permit to > return, they’ll lose their visa. > > FWIW, I sponsored a woman to come over here on a fianceé visa years ago. > It was quite an ordeal. I learned far more about our immigration system and > laws than I ever wanted to know, and I got a first-hand view of how totally > screwed-up it is. It’s quite amazing that it works at all. > > I’ve also helped a couple of former employers prosecute H1B hires. It’s a > total racket. > > Folks are certainly free to take a stand that, “I’m not getting involved > with politics”. But if you want to see how horrible and even abusive 70 > years of political string-pulling can get, just try becoming a sponsor for > a foreigner who wants to come here for some reason, or to help a company > hire someone on an H1B visa. You might also discover that perhaps 95% of > everything said on the news media and in articles about immigration laws > and policies are flat out wrong. It’s pretty much ALL politics, since most > of it is lies and misleading information, most of it spoken by politicians > themselves, who KNOW that most of what they say is wrong. > > The sad fact is, if you want to put an audience to sleep, discussing > details about immigration laws is a great way to do it. I’d be suprised if > anybody has even gotten to the end of my missive here. :) > > -David Schwartz > > > > > On Jul 1, 2025, at 8:38 PM, mike/r via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > This is a Linux list, so I won't get into the politics. Corporate H1-B > visas are limited to 85,000, including 20,000 reserved for those with an > advanced degree. While recently around 600,000 visas are requested > annually (both corporate and otherwise), most are not granted. The visas > generally last for 3 years and can usually be extended another 3 years. In > my (quite dated) experience, graduates did not have to return to their home > country. Do not take any of this as my opinion on whether it should or > should not be this way. > > > On 7/1/25 9:13 PM, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote: > > I saw a video of part of a roundtable thing where there were HR reps from MS, > HP, and some other major software employers, and the part I saw was about H1B > candidates. This would have been about 10 years ago now. > > They said they budgeted $50k to prosecute every H1B visa. That’s JUST THE > LEGAL FEES for the immigraion paperwork over time. > > There was also employee on-boarding, relocation, salary, and and other stuff. > For the ones who were married, or got married later, they also included the > visa / immigration costs for their family members as well. > > I wish someone would file a lawsuit against them in order to get to a > Discovery phase where they can find out exactly how much they budget for job > retrainingf or existing employees. > > Here’s some context: Companies that hire for DoD jobs take up around 70% of > all BS graduates who are US Citizens, because they cannot hire foreigners. > DoD hires account for a majority of MS and PhD grads who are also US > Citizens. These employers do not have any incentive to pay for graduate > school for these folks, so very few of them go on to graduate school. > > However, a significant number of STEM students, especially in Engineering and > Computer Science, are foreigners. They can get their BS here and then their > MS, but then they have to go back to their home country for 2 years. > Predictably, this encouraged a lot of companies to set up facilities to hire > these people in their home countries. But once that 2-year window is expired, > many of them are brought to America. > > In order to qualify for an H1B visa, the person has to have relatively unique > skills, and it’s very rare for someone without a MS or PhD to qualify for an > H1B. > > Because DoD hires account for such a large percentage of US Citizens at all > levels, it’s difficult for US employers to hire them. Which leaves foreigners > as the largest pool of prospective employees — especially if they want to > hire people with graduate degrees. > > That’s fine and dandy, but what’s wonky about it is why a company like MS > would spend so much to hire H1B candidates rather than retrain US employees. > It’s really very simple. > > The main reason is the length of time it takes to get a green card. The last > I heard, it was taking nearly 10 years for people from India to get their > GCs. Some countries are as low as 4-5 years. > > People on an H1B visa are earning a ton of money relative to what they’d get > back home; they live cheaply and send most of their earnings to their > families at home. The employer is paying for all of their immigration fees > which is probably over $100k over time, if not more. > > But here’s the thing: because it takes so long to get the GCs, these people > are basically slaves. They keep a very low profile, they never complain, will > not argue with anybody, or do anything that might get them fired. Because if > they leave, all of the funds paid by their employer are LOST and their > application is immediatly dismissed. They have 30 days to find another > employer willing to start over on their H1B from scratch … or they have to > leave the country. > > Which is why when they have layoffs, the US Citizens are always the ones to > get cut. Unfortunately, it’s NOT illegal, and is a very common practice. If > it WAS illegal, these companies would probably move 100% of their software > development off-shore. > > Personally, I think they should be required to EARN THE RIGHT to process H1B > visas, showing they have spent some reasonable amount of money retraining > say, 10 US Citizens in order to hire ONE new H1B candidate. Or pay to put ONE > US Citizen through graduate school and earn a Master’s degree in order to > hire ONE foreigner with a Master’s degree. > > As it is, there are NO restrictions on how many US Citizens they can layoff > versus how many foreigners they can hire. > > The only limitation is that there are only 65,000 H1B visas per year, and > that includes spouses and family members. They become available in October, > and are usually all scarfed-up in a day or two. > > This is one of those things that will hopefully be fixed whenever Congress > decides to fix our outdated, unfair, and mostly broken immigration laws. > > -David Schwartz > > > > > > On Jul 1, 2025, at 4:45 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss > <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > Hi, > > "Between May and June, Microsoft laid off 2,300 employees in Washington > alone, including 817 software engineers ... During the same period, Microsoft > submitted 6,327 H-1B visa requests for software engineer roles matching the > same job titles and location as those affected by the layoffs" - As far as I > know this is illegal. > > About 16 years ago I was on the Tucson Free Unix List and made a post about > H1B visas. I was met with a reply of "what's the matter are you afraid of > someone more skilled". I expect there are folks on this list that fee the > same way. > > H1B visas are bad for our country especially when there are plenty of skilled > people right here. > > I often wonder why Gates never created a school to teach the skills he needs > for his company. > > I'm 69 years old and when I take a trip down memory late I feel I would have > been better off staying in the field I was in and enjoy technology as a > hobby. It has been a rough ride. I feel for those being laid off and > especially those being laid off so some really rich folks can take advantage > of the system. > > Bravo to those who are ditching M$ for Linux. I have tried multiple times > and I think October (end of life for M10) will be the end of M$ for me. > https://www.wnd.com/2025/07/microsoft-dumps-thousands-american-workers-favor-cheaper-foreign/ > > Peace, Out!! > Keith > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >
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