On 12/12/06, Dean Michael Berris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Okay Manny, now you've made it personal.
On 12/12/06, manny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Dean Michael Berris wrote:
> > I'm against the darned FOSS bill. But I continue to write FOSS, use
> > FOSS, and advocate FOSS. I just don't want FOSS to cheat its way into
> > government via this FOSS bill.
>
> That's a nice press release, but whether you realize it or not, you
> clearly favor commercial interests over public interests, as shown by your
> "unique" version of "transparency".
Press release? What's a press release, that I write FOSS, use FOSS,
and advocate FOSS? I know you've seen me in the Linux World 2005
after-party and that it's no secret that I write FOSS (if you're not
convinced, check my blog and sourceforge profile (id: mikhail_beris)
).
No need for pointers, there's $SEARCH_ENGINE .
FOSS can be considered more transparent than non-FOSS, even if the
non-FOSS solution's code is available to the government. Being FOSS
does not define transparency -- just like clean water is more
transparent than murky water, there are degrees of transparency.
Err, isn't this `translucency`, not transparency?
>
> The FOSS bill is NOT a technology issue, but you can't seem to grasp that.
THE FOSS BILL IS A TECHNOLOGY ISSUE!!! IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT
FOSS STANDS FOR "FREE / OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE" THEN YOU SHOULD SHUT UP
BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT MAKING SENSE.
Both of you seem to grasp opposite sides of the coin, whereas FOSS is
THE coin. One needs two fingers to hold such a coin, in equal force;
if one finger pushes too much, the coin may flip.
> It's a FREEDOM and TRANSPARENCY issue.
The Bill of Rights is a FREEDOM and LIBERTY issue. The anti-graft and
corruption laws deal with TRANSPARENCY issues.
Nowhere in the FOSS Bill does it actually define transparency or
freedom. Nor does it even *attempt* to define freedom (except maybe
the pretty much useless introduction/privilege speech which does not
bear anything unless provisions are made to support these... unless of
course you don't know how bills work and are written).
Well, the bill obviously needs a cluebat; have you whacked someone's
head lately?
> The bill seeks to promote a way of
> thinking about software licensing vis-a-vis freedom.
And it has failed to find a way. The proposition was to mandate that
FOSS be the first choice BY LAW -- if that wasn't an infringement of
the individual agency's freedom to set their own legal policies on
software procurement, then it's a blatant disregard for the autonomy
of the three branches of government and the agencies that serve
underneath each of these three branches. You can't have it both ways.
If you cannot see this in the bill's current form, then you either
have major brain damage, or have been drinking too much RMS' koolaid
-- or reading a different bill.
Both of you need to look into other areas of the Internets, and drink
your AIDS from different tubes. Enjoy it.
> That's
> NOT cheatting any more than a government preference for democratic laws is
> cheating.
>
The 72-hour "Con-Ass" thing was a "preference for democratic laws"
because it was pushed by the ruling majority. THAT WAS A BLATANT
ATTEMPT TO PUSH AN AGENDA BY USING THE LAW: WHAT DIFFERENCE IS THIS
FOSS BILL?!
I haven't been keen into current issues lately because I'm ignorant.
I suppose that drama is about pushing a `hidden' agenda, but then
again, any issue (especially issues regarding freedom AND
responsibility) is about pushing agendas. Frankly, I'm not really too
sure about Rep. Casino's (et al.) agenda with this bill, even as I
have read Chin Wong's interview (which is good and all, but still
leaves me with a bit of caution.)
Let's just be wary, then, about this move. Obviously PLUGgers have
their say, and obviously the concerns voiced out are pretty serious.
> > I take offense in the implication that "I've been bought" by Microsoft
> > and other companies. I certainly don't appreciate your singling me out
> > Manny.
>
> I don't appreciate your MISREPRESENTATION of the FOSS bill and the GPL/FSF
> either.
I am not misrepresenting anything: I am airing my concern, and my
interpretation of the darned FOSS bill. I NEVER TRIED TO REPRESENT THE
FOSS BILL NOR THE GPL/FSF -- I never claimed that I wrote the bill,
nor that I am part of the GPL (isn't that a license?) or the FSF. Now
what right do you have to accuse me of representing anything or anyone
but myself for that matter?
Well both of you have been prone to be misunderstood by the reading
public, obviously. Just about most of PLUG flamewars that I've
watched (and sometimes participated ;) have you and Manny on the
starring roles, with supporting performances by the other prominent
PLUGgers.
I'm tired of this passionate intellectual fapping poisoning this list
though, so let me take this opportunity to express my support of the
creation of the `PLUG.politics.5769' binary newsgroup, where fappers
can post their material for/against HB 5769.
There are other people here who have made their thoughts known, but
apparently you chose me -- not anybody else, ME -- to react to, when
others have also made the same argument that I have. You want me to
quote them? No Manny, you have something against me and my
self-procalimed pragmatic view of the FOSS bill situation. If it's not
obvious yet, I'll make it obvious for everyone else now: you hate my
guts for opposing this FOSS bill because YOU STAND TO GAIN FROM IT.
Apparently for Manny, it sucks to be you.
It sucks to be me, though, since I have to stand up with all this
fapping. FWIW, it appears that I myself have something to gain from
this bill, and so does everyone else; that includes you :D. Hence, no
need for the libel crap.
This pointing me out in public is only reflecting that Manny, you
wouldn't take on anybody your own size and will not resort to any
valid argument: rather attack the person you're arguing with by saying
"you're dishonest" or "you're misrepresenting someone else".
To Manny: protip: don't make a string of replies to the same person on
different threads. Or better yet: follow up with a personal phone
call to Dean and say to him: "OMG ITS A LION GET IN THE
CAR!!!!!111"[0]
[0] Yes, this officially makes my reply just a wildcard :P I hope
lurkers here have visited 4chan sometime in their lifetimes...
If it helps you sleep better, the FOSS bill will make good business
for Orange and Bronze Software Labs, Ltd. Co. in which I am a partner
in, and the current firm I'm working with. It will definitely be good
business for FOSS third party vendors like us, and the many other
firms my friends and some members of PLUG are involved with right now.
Yes, we all stand to benefit from FOSS in government.
Oh, there we go... Hence, shouldn't everyone here be happy that
Congress is finally taking notice?
Or have we taken notice first to the fact that Congress is mostly a
bunch of f*cktards, and that we're scared to death that FOSS may
ultimately be just another Trojan Horse for its supporters AND
detractors to get into the fabled House of Pork Barrel?
In either case, this topic of the FOSS bill is definitely GOLD. We
have so many EPIC threads here that further supports the creation of
the above-mentioned newsgroup.
> If you don't want that, be honest about what the bill states
> and what the GPL/FSF is about.
But I've been nothing but honest about my opinion and stand. How about
you, have you been honest with your objectives in calling me out and
making it personal?
> Until then, you will get what you
> practically ask for. It's simple as that.
No, I didn't ask to be personally attacked on a public mailing list by
you nonetheless the (I presume) head of OpenMinds when I aired my
opinion and interpretation of the FOSS bill. If there's anybody
misrepresenting the FOSS bill or the FSF, that's YOU.
No Manny, YOU asked for this.
And BOTH of you are simply asking for a LOT of attention. Good thing
there isn't such a thing as a Permaban in PLUG, or is there? :P
We NEED to just DROP this. Please. DROP IT WHILE IT'S HOT, like what
Dean used to say when need to take those breaks off coding. FFS, its
Christmas, dammit!!!
Make up with each other, and make out with each other. I'm sure
people will ask for moar. FOR THE LOVE OF $DEITY, DROP THIS SH*T.
Cheers,
Zakame
--
Zak B. Elep || http://zakame.spunge.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1486 7957 454D E529 E4F1 F75E 5787 B1FD FA53 851D
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