In the interest of closing the issue with bluepoint, i am forwarding (with permission) this exchange i had with Engels, which clears up a lot of things, and resolves the issues of past posts. My apologies to those "startled" with the manner of how i posted previously. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:30:53 +0800 From: Engels Antonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Ian C. Sison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Clearing up the issues Hello Ian, > Thank you for your reply, Engels. Rather than debate about this publicly, > i'd rather settle this issue privately because, hard it may be for you too > believe, we in PLUG do want you guys "in", and from the posts in the > group, this is a unanimous opinion. It's good to hear from you again. Yes, I agree that we must settle this issue quietly. >> Wasn't that what you guys did to me a few months back? If Orly Andico didn't >> forward me a copy of the "righteous indignations" coming from your group, I >> wouldn't have known about all the back-stabbing going on. > Actually, if you recall, i sent you an email _privately_ (the one i > included in the last email) first, notifying you of things going on in the > mailing list. Again, even it it seems hard for you to believe, since i > knew you personally, i felt that you had a right to know about these > issues and defend yourself and your group. I actually thought i was doing > you a favor. Okay, point well taken. Can we let this go now? >> As much as I would like to clear the air before things get any worse, you >> really did tell me that you could not, and that you needed help. I'm sorry >> but you really did. > In all honesty, i did not want to get the project because mainly i wasn't > a full time employee. If you had included that reason rather than just > say "because he could not do it", that would have been a much more > accurate narration of our discussion. > I've handled projects before, even much bigger, but in that case i didn't > want to because i wanted to focus on building my business rather than > something else that will occupy my time. Okay Ian, I believe you. You won't hear anything about this topic from me again. I was angry when I wrote that post. My apoligies if my statements were less than accurate. > Your board was wrong in silencing you. Silence means an admission of > guilt to a majority of people, and that clearly does not do well to your > image to the community. If you made your explanations public back then, > then the issue wouldv'e been resolved much earlier. Believe me Ian, I agonized a lot because of this...you know that it's not like me to take things sitting down. So it was like an issue between me and PLUG when it was actually an issue between our respective organizations. The board wanted to avoid fanning the flames. I guess it was a wrong call. >> Honestly, I would like to believe that Ian because you are a member of the >> Linux and Open Source communities. It's just that it's your word against one >> of our students who did business with you. My statement was based on the >> information provided by our student, and you know that I stand by my >> students. If they're wrong, I'm wrong. My apologies if this is the case. > As i said i scale my fees according to individual requirements. It may be > true that they found me expensive, but really, one student doesn't make > for a convincing generalization. Nevertheless, lets just let this go. Agreed. >> Mud-slinging begets the same, a wise man once told me that. You preen and >> posture as though I am the only guilty party here. I am not going to talk >> about dot.pH because I respect Mylene and the others. However, I do not >> appreciate your righteous finger-pointing one bit. > Again, my intentions when i sent that email to you was not to throw mud at > you. We were discussing the issue in the mailing list, and i thought it > WAS YOUR RIGHT TO KNOW ABOUT THIS. So i sent you that email. > I apologise if, depite my effort to make it neutral, your board took it > the wrong way. But the intentions were good, again because of the premise > that we knew each other. You can then understand that coming from this > point of view and getting your post to blue, how surprised i was that you > took it all in a way i didn't intend it to be. And I apologize, again, if my post rubbed you the wrong way. >> In my response to your last e-mail (which the board told me not to send >> anymore) I tried to explain to you that your assumptions were wrong - we did > I never did get any response and maybe that is the root of the problem. > Engels, i would have even defended you in PLUG, if you just gave me an > explanation. Thanks Ian. Some decisions are just not mine to make, even if I currently chair the board. >> not issue any press release and we did not have any PR staff, let alone an >> over-eager one. It was all a misunderstanding. The server issue is already >> stale and I'm very tired of addressing it over and over again. Believe what >> you will, there's nothing I can do to change it anyway. I am currently >> writing this message using MS Outlook. Should I expect more flames because >> of this? > Honestly, i'd just like to let this go. We can agree to disagree. I agree to agree if you will. >> If you say so. Point is, some members of your group judged and condemned us >> before getting our side of the story. That's what I was trying to point out. > FYI, plug is a non-moderated mailing list. Issues come up, people get > flamed, and those that win arguments are the ones with the most sound > technical explanation. I don't have a right to control members any more > than you probably have on your own forums. What i intended to do was make > a case for you (since you weren't on the list), if ever you did reply to > my email. > In any case, this point is now moot, and my suggestion for you to avoid > this kind of situation in the future, is still to please be a part of our > discussion group. Yes it is. Shall we let this one go too? >> Again, the issue of firsts rears it's ugly head. No, I don't care if our >> distro was first or not and we never claimed it as such in the first place. >> Again, the issue was triggered by an honest mistake, not an over-eager press >> release like what you would like to believe. > Ok, let's just let this go as well? Yes, let's. >> I respect it. Yes, I agree that PLUG is not a clique group...Eric Pareja and >> William Yu have already proven that it isn't. However, coming on with "I >> think you're full of crap but hey, would you like to join us?" is not >> exactly an acceptable invitation for us. Now you conveniently label >> Bluepoint as a company working in a vaccum. Do you understand what I'm >> trying to say? We are "outsiders" because you make us feel like so and treat >> us as such. We have signified our intention to work with you, yet some of >> you continue to take potshots at us. How then, do you expect us to be a part >> of your group? > I'm sorry if you felt like outsiders, but really this all just started > with the mistaken press release. If you had taken the time to post on the > list your explanation, things would have turned out differently. > I don't know what goes on in your board - and how they control your > actions and procedures, but the usual way things go in linux is that if > one has a service, or product, or something to share to the community, one > announces it to the community and calls for testers, peer-reviewers. Doc > Mana did that for his ADMULinux, and we all respect him for the work he > did. You could have done the same for Buhawi, and even gotten healthy > feedback from those that tried to use it. Most importantly, you wouldv'e > gotten the respect of the community that way, and if this all came before > your press release, then all the "crappy" reactions from the community > would never have happened. > Ang dating kase sa marami sa amin, sino ba yung bluepoint na yan, which > apparently just came out from nowhere claiming stuff, e hindi naman > tumutulong sa amin ito. Get their point of view? Not to say that they > are correct, but that's how they viewed things. Not all of the members of > plug know you or bluepoint, you know. Again, there are a lot of calls that I cannot make alone. I respect our board and the decisions they make, perhaps to a fault, perhaps not. Anyway, I understand where the other PLUG members are coming from. I just hope that this is the last issue between me and PLUG. >> Thanks for the resend. I also have a copy of that message in my MUA which I >> continuously reflect on and try to learn from. Yes, believe it or not, we >> were truly mis-quoted. No, this is not someone's idea of a joke. This is an >> *outburst* from someone who has had enough. Bugbog sarado na ako at ang >> Bluepoint Ian...should I just smile? Ikaw, when you're down on the floor and >> they keep on kicking, would you? > Engels, hindi namin kayo binu-bugbog-sarado. I apologise if this was how > it affected you personally, and professionally. I'm like a broken record > here, but you know if you come in and join us, participate in Q&A, > especially in our newbie-list, people will respect you more, and not even > think twice about bluepoint and what you can do. > PLUG is a purely technical forum, whose 'signal' is high compared to > noise. Despite the animosity that happened due to this exchange, believe > me when i tell you that posts to the list are judged purely on the merit > of the technical discussion, and not on the people posting. > I know you are busy, and don't have the time for this, but hey, so do all > of us! We've got the CTO of interdotnet, numerous overworked sysads from > mozcom, skyinternet, edsamail, i-manila, q-linux, ateneo, up-m, dlsu on > the list, all contributing what they can. I won't be busy in a few month's time. As I told Orly Andico, I'm taking a break from Linux and Open Source-related work. I requested for a sabbatical leave from the foundation after that first clash with PLUG. It's quite unfortunate that this had to happen when I'm so close to my vacation. >> Honestly, I was beaten badly and bent out of shape by the flames that came >> my way before then but I kept quiet because those were *personal* attacks >> and insults. But to hear my student's voice shaking on the phone as he >> recounted how Bluepoint was discredited in his face just broke all my >> restraints. If my post rubbed you, or any member of PLUG, the wrong way, my >> apologies. > For the record, i never attacked you personally, and my intentions were > good all along, as i just wanted to get your side. If you heard from > someone that i said this or that about you, or maligned you personally in > any way, then that someone is sadly mistaken, or making up something that > i did not do. My "nasty" comments in the previous post were done simply > in reaction to your posts, as i had to defend myself as well. > I don't know what other PLUG members have said about you privately or > publicly, but at least for these issues between you and me, again, can we > please let it go? I want to make peace with you and all the individuals I have slighted with my angry post. I have already apologized to them last night. As for the issues between you and me, let's let it go. >> I'm tired Ian. I can't keep parrying incoming "love letters" any longer. I >> have copy furnished the PLUG and BLUE mailing lists with this reply with the >> hope of clearing things once and for all. > Believe it or not, so am i; i thought this issue died a long time ago. A > lot of these things are the result of the lack of communication between > bluepoint and plug, so can you at least consider keeping comm lines open > with us? Do i need to talk to your board? I'm willing to apologise and > explain things if you think it would help. I believe you, because I know the feeling all too well. I also thought that this issue was long dead, but I was mistaken. There's no need to apologize to the board...as it is I who took the full impact of the issues anyway. I'm just thankful for this chance to pick up the pieces one last time. Regards, Engels - Engels Antonio Bluepoint Institute of Higher Technology Foundation http://www.bluepoint.com.ph/buhawi/ -------------------------------------------- I don't fear Limbo -- I administer Aurora. I don't fear Purgatory -- I administer AIX. And I don't fear Hell -- I administer Linux. -------------------------------------------- _ Philippine Linux Users Group. 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