Let me try to start with a "Problem statement", note this
was written after reading and commenting to the email in
line.
You are trying to "keep running" an old Quad QSP-2 peck and
place machine that uses 2 computers, one shall be called the
GUI and the other the RTC.
The *original* implementation of these machines are:
GUI: Some hardware foo running some os bar.
RTC: Some hardware foo running some os bar.
A 486SBC with lots of ISA slots? How many is lots?
(can you please fill in details?)
You are trying to upgrade whis to a newer OS, we believe
that Windows 98SE or ME is the max version that Q-Soft
works with for reasons .... (Please be specific.) One
of theses reasons has to do with a shared memory ISA
card.
Notes: I am having a very difficult time with your
assertion about a shared memory ISA card being an
issue, even very modern VGA devices power up as a
shared ISA bus device, this holds true all the way
up until you get to UEFI and frame buffer consoles.
I would however accept that the Q-Soft written driver
code makes calls that are no longer supported, or
operates in a way that is incompatible with typical
device type shared ISA memory devices.
> Quoting "Rodney W. Grimes" <[email protected]>:
>
> Windows 98SE is poorly supported on a lot of SBC's, nonetheless, we
> are trying to work around that.
>
> We are using a passive PICMG 1.3 backplane in the gui which has PCI slots.
Your confusing me when you say "in the gui". Can you clarify that
for me some how please?
>
> The RTC is an ISA only passive backplane, because the RTC requires a
> lot of ISA cards.
Perhaps define RTC, but I think I am getting there are 2
computers in this machine? One you are calling the GUI,
the other you are calling the RTC?
>
> Windows 98 or ME is the max version of Windows that Q-Soft works with
> because everything that
> came after is without dos underneath it. We've never gotten ME to
> work by the way.
Even Windows XP has a DOS boot layer, and legacy VGA using shared ISA
memory support, and still has 16 bit code support, so I am again
struggling with an assertion that your issue is "without dos underneath"
and probably has some other issue. Aka you need to tweak a pif for an
app to force it to run in compatibility mode, etc.
>
> A Quad QSP-2 is a pick and place machine for surface mount
> electronics. The machines cost about $15k-$30k dollars refurbished.
> Microsoft's push for everyone to go to ten has not even affected
> current models yet. Older machines that are ISA based like ours
> cannot run Windows NT style operating system on the gui because of the
> ISA shared memory card.
>
> While the real time system may work with Freedos which is better
> potentially than MS-DOS 6.22, the gui is trickier. Most of the SBCs
> are 20-30 years old. Many are being reworked because the bios battery
> is dead, etcetera. We are
> trying two Pentium Pro Trenton boards, but we will have to use a buck
> converter for the RTC which is ISA only.
Buck converter? Suddenly your jumping into power supply issues?
> Original system uses a
> Pentium and a 486 SBC. Again, even Pentium Pro boards are old these
> days where getting anything older in working condition is going to be
> tricky.
The latest CPU chip that I know of that still shipped with ISA bus
slots was the pentium 4 chip. Lots and lots of PIII systems with
ISA buses. I have boxes full of proper generation hardware about
to go to the scrapers, but they may be slot limited for your RTC.
> You have to find a supported SBC that works well with Windows 98SE.
It must be a SBC? Why?
> You have to confirm that the bios battery is good, that you have a
> good cpu, and that you have good memory.
Bios batteries on anyting newer than a 486 are almost always a
CR2032 and readily replacable. CPU chips rarely die, and are readily
avaliable in the used market. Ditto for memory.
> You have to round up any important 3rd party drivers.
Yes, windows 98SE drivers can be a PITA to find.
> Hopefully, we can use the Intel 430TX
> chipset and a Pentium no problem, maybe a Pentium Pro, in the gui.
> Ideally, a Pentium or Pentium Pro board that Windows 98SE works with
> out of the box.
I would not go that old, socket 370 Pentium III boards are
fairly easy to get running windows 98, gets tricky at Pentium 4.
The retro gamers have lots of details on getting these working.
> The reason for looking into replacement of Windows 98SE is that a lot
> of SBC manufacturers failed to support it well due to the release of
> Windows XP which we cannot use.
I thought windows 98 was the replacement for some Dos based stuff,
now your talking about replacing windows 98.
> Another problem, if I'm not mistaken,
> is that Windows 98SE has a memory leak issue and issues supporting
> modern amounts of memory.
> Think close to a gigabyte on memory.
I am not aware of a memory leak issue, but that would not
supprize me. IIRC windows 98SE starts to have issues at
512MB of memory, mostly because of the system area virtual
map, and the first symptom of this issue is you can not
open a DOS box. You can artificially restrict windows 98
to 512MB should you have to use hardware with more memory,
thus you can get it to run on newer hardware, it just well
not use it.
> Instead of hard drives we have decided to use 1 gigabyte CF cards
> plugged into the EIDE.
So the needed disk space is only 1G. This makes for nice options
> The thought is that CF cards take power
> failure better than hard drives and they are easier to get than hard
> drives of this era.
Again of the era may be a design choice that should be
evaluated, though you have already found a work around,
I am concerned about the avaliability of 1G CF cards
more than I am of a usable hard drive. Win98SE supports
upto 128GB with out issue, and larger with work arounds,
and this is a boot drive issue. You can boot 98SE from
a larger drive so long as the boot partition is in the
first 2^28 LBA of the device (128GB).
I actually doubt a CF takes a power failure any better
than a hard disk.
> With two CF cards you can have a backup if the
> running CF fails. Pop the backup in and you're pretty much back up.
> A power failure by the way will ruin a run of circuit boards. The
> machine itself draws enough power that PPM doesn't recommend a UPS for
> it, even for the SBC's alone. The Quad QSP-2 is originally a Tyco
> made machine.
Then I would conclude that PPM has perhaps made a poor
recomendation, that should probably be re-evaluated as
technology has greatly reduce the cost of backup power.
Can you quantify "enough power"?
> Any chance of a kernel patch from a 3rd party for Windows 98SE?
> Preferably a free one?
A kernel patch to do what?
> There was a project to replace Windows 95 but
> they switched and renamed the OS to ReactOS going after Windows XP and
> newer. Sadly, they seem to be stalled at the moment. The 0.4.11
> release is decent, but they have a long ways to go.
>
> Any recommendations on getting the two heads up whether they be
> hardware recommendations or open source patches for the Windows 98SE
> OS are most welcome. My brother and I need to learn how to calibrate
> the camera system and actually place a surface mount part on a small
> board. After that, we need to create a full program for placing
> multiple components. A prototype will come next once we have a
> program ready. After a prototype is satisfactory, we reproduce it in
> a small run. As we get the hang of programming the QSP-2 and running
> it, there will be boards
> for me to develop firmware for. Finally, I will be programming again ;-)
I would suggest a far more complete problem statement
and alternative analysis, I see lots of conclusions
that seem to lack background information. You may of
done this, but I can not see that from reading this
thread.
--
Rod Grimes [email protected]
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