Okay, although you didn't directly answer my question, I think I now see the point you were trying to make... that both of us were/are in France legally, whereas undocumented workers are not conforming to US law. As fot the international DL: if he obtained it in France, then YES, it means he was legally documented... in order to obtain the international DL, he would have had to present himself to the local prefecture in France. Although, I think he might have misspoke, or there where different laws in place during the time he was here: the international DL is only valid for one year following one's arrival in France... thus he could not have possessed one for three years; however, he might have meant that he obtained the legal French DL, which, for him, would have been international (plus, it would be effectively international since it would be recognised throughout the EU). In any case, as I have said, I have not been following the entire thread, so I am not certain what the points are that you and Hank are trying to make.
--- John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael, > Thanks for the question - I find it > 'undocumented'<G>: > * > did you 'sneak' in to France, or did you travel with > a passport that authorized you (in France) to enter > the country? Do you violate the staying regulations > of your 'alien' status, or do you have (at least) a > (potemtial?) acceptance of your stay? Do the French > authorities know about your stay, or are you a > hiding criminal? (I call 'criminal' who violates the > country's law in ANY respect).Do you comply with the > French law in financial etc. aspects? > Do you violate the sensitivity of the French > (patriotic?) people in postulating your heritage to > be imposed on the French? Are you > talking/reading'writing in French? Are there French > current laws prohibiting your stay? and so on..... > Answer these questions and please, thereafter repeat > yours. > > One more point: I am not satisfied with Hank's > "documented" expression. To have an international > driver licence (I had one) is no 'status' to be > 'documented'. Maybe: "to HAVE a document." Again the > 'half truth'. I am sure you are/will be 'documented' > (full truth) with the French authorities (state, > city, whatever). > > John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: michael haaheim > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] Immigrant's Impact on the > Economy - both documented and undocumented > > > Okay... let's modify the conditions a little... I > am currently in France, much the same condition as > Hank, but I DO intend to reside here permanently. I > DO NOT intend to become a French citizen. How does > that effect your argument against Hank? > Mostly, I'm just curious, because I really haven't > been following the thread of this argument... > however, I noticed the point you made. I am curious > what your point is. > > John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hank, > you try mixing up fact and fiction, but I think > you can mix up only the uninformed reader. Did you > WANT to become permanent in France? I thionk not. So > you were a temporary visitor WITH all legalities > necessary to be admitted to France. Documented. > The word "Influx" is a cop-out. They SNEAK in. > I agree with you in not liking an "iron courtain" > around the US. > Those insneaking - and only the Latinos - destroy > the 'national' habitat they 'flux' into, change the > language, depress the wages and therefore they are > favored by the Hi-Finance powers (like GWB) who reap > the profit of that. Frankly, my friend, I am > perplexrd to see you (ostentatively leftist) to > fight for the Big Money's interest. One side of this > double image is fake. Or you have poor comprehension > of the question. I never heard that Chinese, Indian. > Polish, or Russian immigrants demanded language > priviledges in this English speaking country. The > only country where it works fine is Switzerland, > everybody speaks several languages, not only > Spanish. > And I congratulate you for being the son of > (legal of course) immigrants. I was admitted in > 1970. Became citizen 5 years later, because I wanted > to live here. Pay taxes from day 1, even earlier, I > was here on a Sabbatical and had some income on the > side and paid the taxes. That was the law of this > country. (It was beneficial in calculating my Social > Security 'years' at retirement). And a bad word: I > considered myself quite "natural" even before I > became "naturalized". Natural and legal. Citizen. > You asked, I replied. Any more questions? > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: adar > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] Immigrant's Impact on > the Economy - both documented and undocumented > > Can I call them influxes? I am the son of > immigrants. How about residents > since they now live here. Documentation could > be a driver's license, but > why would they have to become naturalized? Why > must one choose? When I > lived in France for three years I had an > international drivers license and > was not a citizen of France and had no > intentions of becoming one although > if my son had lived who was born there he would > have been automatically a > French citizen (and an American citizen). > > Hank > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2007, John wrote: > > > HANK: > > > and please, refrain from using "imigrants" for > 'undocumented' > > insneakers, call them illegal or not. An > immigrant joins the country > > inder the lawful terms of the country. Those > "immigrants" you refer to > > are the 'legal', documented influx of people > according to the country's > > decision in number and origin, do we agree > with those conditions, or > > not. Those times of the 16th - 18th c are > over when vast territories > > were available as free loot from the Indians > (just kill them off). John > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: adar > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 12:19 PM > > Subject: [PNEWS-L] Immigrant's Impact on the > Economy - both documented and undocumented > > > > > > > > Please do not use the term "illegal" in lieu > of undocumented. There is > > nothing illegal about being a person and > laws are themselves legislative > > constructs and subject to interpretation and > change. These are > > undocumented but they are fully > participatory in the economies in which > > they live and work. > > > > AND they contribute to a nation's economy. > The right-wing talking points > > will lie and some here will repeat those > lies. Rely on the facts. That, I > > assume is why you came here. Anyone > knowingly posting false information > > here will be subject to being challenged by > me and possibly moderation. > > > > Hank > > > > MMIGRANTS' IMPACT ON U.S. ECONOMY > > > > * Do undocumented immigrants in the United > States really pay > > taxes? If so, how many pay how much? Does > that mean they're not a net > > "drain" on the U.S. economy as we hear so > often in the media? And why do > > they pay, if they're scared to be found out > by the federal government? > > > > ** A recently released report by the > Executive Office of the > > President's Council of Economic Advisers, > "Immigration's Economic Impact" > > (June 20, 2007) notes that, "On average, > U.S. natives benefit from > > immigration. Immigrants tend to complement > (not substitute for) natives, > > raising natives' productivity and income." > The report also notes that > > studies looking at the "long-run fiscal > effects of immigration conclude > > that it is likely to have a modest, positive > influence." On the subject of > > immigrants and taxes, the report points to > projections of future taxes and > > government spending observing that a > National Research Council study > > estimates that "immigrants and their > descendants would contribute about > > $80,000 more in taxes (1996 dollars) than > they would receive in public > > services." (Source cited: Smith and > Edmonston). A study by the Urban > > Institute says immigrants in New York State > pay over $18 billion a year in > > taxes, (over 15% of the total), and roughly > proportional to their size in > > the state's population. To read more on this > issue, visit the Immigration > > Forum Web site. > === message truncated === ____________________________________________________________________________________ Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool. http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
