I have to admit that I lean more towards considering viruses alive - though with a unique method of reproduction. But there are different methods and styles of reproduction amongst living things.
----- Original Message ----- From: michael haaheim To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] Re: Living on the Edge Actually, I do not commit myself to any specific camp. I don't know if virii are living or non-living organisms. Both sides promote important points. Again our classifications are VERY ambiguous (nature does not behave according to strict rules of classification)... virii are living or non-living according to what the criteriae of classification are (I have no problems with your criteriae, I just think that it is important to note that not all scientists follow the same criteriae, and thus come to different conclusions... you made a statement that COULD legitimately be taken as a falsehood, IF the person reading it was not familiar with your criteriae). Personally, I think that within the next generation or two, our concept of "life" may be faced with some drastic revisioning as new concepts continue to enter the domain of human cognition. My personal view is that of a living cosmos (perhaps sentient or evolving sentience), with what we perceive as life being just a surface of the overall process... I think that it is the evolution of pattern that defines life, not the particular components by which it manifests itself. ----- Original Message ---- From: Hank Roth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:13:15 PM Subject: [PNEWS-L] Re: Living on the Edge Of course this is spliting hairs BUT there are no absolutes in science which is why it is often so much fun and why nobody stops trying to disprove everyone wrong so they can prove something new. I welcome your comments about viruses being alive and I have been aware of the different opinions, but I think to be honest it is a minority position. Most scientists consider a viruses not alive, if not completely dead - for all the reasons I have given and others supporting both positions. However, that said, there is some virus that is extremely large. Mimivirus is a case in point. So is it alive? Well, it is definitely parasitic as are all viruses. A viruses needs a cell to hijack to replicate itself but it can also be modified by genes jumping laterally. What a concept but it happens all the time which kind of knocks evolution out of the box. In fact I wonder how much our genes are modified by gene drift? I know it happens and it has nothing to do with evolution. Again thanks for your input. Hank Addendum: Science. 2004 Nov 19;306(5700) :1344-50. Epub 2004 Oct 14. * Science. 2005 May 20 The 1.2-megabase genome sequence of Mimivirus. Raoult D, Audic S, Robert C, Abergel C, Renesto P, Ogata H, La Scola B, Suzan M, Claverie JM. Unité des Rickettsies, Faculté de Médecine, CNRS UMR6020, Université de la Méditerranée, 13385 Marseille Cedex 05, France. Didier.Raoult@ medecine. univ-mrs. fr We recently reported the discovery and preliminary characterization of Mimivirus, the largest known virus, with a 400-nanometer particle size comparable to mycoplasma. Mimivirus is a double-stranded DNA virus growing in amoebae. We now present its 1,181,404-base pair genome sequence, consisting of 1262 putative open reading frames, 10% of which exhibit a similarity to proteins of known functions. In addition to exceptional genome size, Mimivirus exhibits many features that distinguish it from other nucleocytoplasmic large DNA viruses. The most unexpected is the presence of numerous genes encoding central protein-translation components, including four amino-acyl transfer RNA synthetases, peptide release factor 1, translation elongation factor EF-TU, and translation initiation factor 1. The genome also exhibits six tRNAs. Other notable features include the presence of both type I and type II topoisomerases, components of all DNA repair pathways, many polysaccharide synthesis enzymes, and one intein-containing gene. The size and complexity of the Mimivirus genome challenge the established frontier between viruses and parasitic cellular organisms. This new sequence data might help shed a new light on the origin of DNA viruses and their role in the early evolution of eukaryotes. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com, michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA@ ...> wrote: > > Yes, I am aware of all of that. That is the primary argument made on the part of those biologists who would classify virii as the most complex non-living organisms. I am just saying that, as of yet, I don't believe that a consensus has yet been determined on the subject. Those biologists who argue that they are the simplest of living organisms would argue that, although they can not reproduce on their own, they CAN, in fact, reproduce, as well as evolve. They argue that virii outside of other organisms are in a dormant state. Also, while they don't take nourishment into themselves, they DO consume nourishment (externally) in their process of reproduction. > Again, one of the problems is that biologists have not yet arrived at a consensus as to what constitutes life. According to SOME definitions, you are entirely correct. Again, I just point out that (to the best of my knowledge) a consensus has not been reached. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Hank Roth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:23:51 PM > Subject: [PNEWS-L] Re: Living on the Edge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Viruses can not sustain life by definition without infecting the > > nucleus of living cells, therefore they are dead genetic material. > > They are not dead as in decomposed or dead due to necrosis or > > apoptosis. Viruses are just a few genes, thus they are protein making > > information. Viruses are extremely small. HIV is only 9 genes. They > > can't do much on their own. Viruses don't eat anything, What they do > > is infect; hijack and change genes. Viruses can't reproduce on their > > own and that is why they are considered dead. They just are there, > > chunks of genetic material which is also why they are excellent for > > gene modification and used in all kinds of applications to insert gene > > information into the DNA of cells where they then spread to all the > > cells which are targeted. The cell(s) they infect reproduces the new > > infected cell. > > > > Hank > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com, michael haaheim <MIKKELHPANDA@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > As I understand it, biologists have STILL not yet come to any > > definite conclusion as to whether or not virii are living organisms. > > Part of the problem is that our definitions of "living" organisms are > > not complete nor universal, and are extremely arbitrary. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: adar <adar@> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 12:35:33 AM > > > Subject: [PNEWS-L] Living on the Edge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Living on the Edge > > > > > > > > > > > > Viruses are not alive. Bacteria and Eukaryotes are alive. 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