You know, if the United States were formally defined as an Anglo-Christian
state, in the same way that Israel is formally defined as a Jewish state, and
if Anglo-Christians treated Jews the same way that Israelis treat Palestinians,
I think you would be screaming bloody murder.
But the truth is that the United States is a trans-ethnic, trans-religious and
universalist state, in principle (and increasingly in practice) dedicated to
treating members of all ethnic and religious groups equally, as long as they
play by the universalist rules and don't subvert the system.
Messianic ethnic nationalist movements always end up demonizing, discriminating
against, abusing and murdering en masse ethnic outsiders. They don't have to
reach the Holocaust stage before closely resembling Nazism in their basic
attributes and inclinations -- the Nazis were Nazis in the 1930s, well before
the systematic mass murder of Jews. Start down the ethnic nationalist path and
you will almost invariably end up at a genocidal destination.
tigerbengalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If
you really believe Zionism is equivalent to Nazism, I really don't know what to
say. It's like asking me to reconstruct reality for you.
And if you DON'T recognize that the US has effectively functioned globally as
"a messianic Anglo-Christian state," then you might at least review the past
two centuries of American history.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Zionism by definition is Jewish ethnic nationalism
-- if you're a Zionist, you're a Jewish ethnic nationalist. The equivalent to
Zionism in Europe would be Nazism.
Ethnic nationalism -- especially messianic ethnic nationalism and ethnic
cultism -- is completely incompatible with American and modern Western
democratic values, which is why Israel and Zionism are on a collision course
with pretty much the entire world.
If America formally defined itself as a messianic Anglo-Christian state, you'd
get the point real quick. It's no wonder that Israel is increasingly reaching
out to the worst crackpots on the American scene (like Christian Armageddonist
John Hagee) to prop up its declining support among mainstream Americans,
mainstream Christians, traditional conservatives and traditional liberals.
Ethnic nationalists tend to be on the same page only with themselves; ethnic
nationalism is intrinsically divisive and self-ghettoizing.
tigerbengalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Most Jews havent a clue who Avigdor Lieberman,
Douglas Feith, David Wurmser, Daniel Pipes, Richard Perle and David Horowitz
are. Most polls put mainstream Jewish attitudes as being quite antithetical to
what these particular largely unknown Jewish leaders espouse. It seems to me
the people who seem to have the most interest in these individuals are either
the fringe hard core Zionist right wing, or anti-Semites.
Likewise, few people know who Kevin Macdonald is.
You seem to have trouble distinguishing between the hard core Zionist right
wing, and a basic belief in and support of the right of a few million Jews in
Israel to live in safety. Many of us Jews, in the west and in Israel, can
entertain the notion of supporting Palestinian rights (Ive militantly supported
it for decades) while still maintaining an ability to distinguish various
trends within the Jewish community, within Zionism, within Jewish-American
politics and the like, without the sort cognitive dissonance that results in
the sort of knee jerk, simple minded stereotypes of Jews--replete with vast
overgeneralizations of "Jewish influence" that I'm seeing on this list.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[begin quote]
Sean, if you can consider a white fascist like Macdonald--who represents the
dominant ethnic group in America to be less dangerous than ideologues who
happen to be member of a tiny minority group, and who (please try to wrap your
brain around this) do not speak for that minority group (Jews), then I dont
know what to tell ya.
[end quote]
Jewish ethnic nationalism (Zionism) has been embraced by the Jewish mainstream
in America, which is an enormously influential group in the mainstream media
and in the Republican and Democratic Parties. European ethnic groups in
American have rejected white ethnic nationalism on largely moral (as well as
practical) grounds.
Kevin MacDonald, whose rhetoric is temperate compared to mainstream Jewish
ethnic nationalists, is not being supported by the white ethnic mainstream in
America. Jewish ethnic extremists like Avigdor Lieberman, Douglas Feith,
David Wurmser, Daniel Pipes, Richard Perle and David Horowitz ARE being
supported by the Jewish political mainstream (including AIPAC, the American
Jewish Committee, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish
Organizations and similar groups).
The double standards on these issues are flagrant and unsustainable over the
long run. We are already seeing the beginnings of a major backlash. If you
want to pretend these developments aren't occurring, be my guest.
tigerbengalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Elucidate: you are saying that there is a genetic
basis for diseases like Tay-Sachs and sickle cell anemia among certain ethnic
groups, but there is a not a genetic basis for mental and personality traits
among certain groups? Do I misunderstand you?
REPLY
You understand perfectly. How does the reality a genetic basis for Tay-Sachs or
sickle cell anemia translate into there being "a genetic basis for mental and
personality traits among certain groups." That is so illogical as to not even
qualify as bad science (or, as some science nerds say, it "not even wrong."
note also, in your statment, you are positing that there ARE "mental and
personality traits among certain groups." Sez who?
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Of course one can Google up many thousands of solid and reputable scientific
articles exploring the genetic basis of mind, personality and culture --
right? Do I need to Google up all the cites here, or do you acknowledge this?
REPLY
Actually, if youre talking about serious research on a genetic basis for any of
those things among a specific group, no, I dont acknowledge it. Google away.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
With regard to MacDonald: this discussion would be much more meaningful to me
if you and Tim anchored your disagreements around particular direct quotes from
MacDonald.
REPLY
Quotes mean nothing to me; I'm not interested in a textual analysis of someone
claiming to be doing science. I'm interested in proof of their scientific
claims. Macdonald has zero.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In general, I find MacDonald, even in his white ethnic nationalist mode, to be
less offensive and dangerous than militant Jewish ethnic nationalists like
David Horowitz and Daniel Pipes, who have access to the mainstream media.
REPLY
Sean, if you can consider a white fascist like Macdonald--who represents the
dominant ethnic group in America to be less dangerous than ideologues who
happen to be member of a tiny minority group, and who (please try to wrap your
brain around this) do not speak for that minority group (Jews), then I dont
know what to tell ya.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Have you actually compared MacDonald's language to their hate speech against
Muslims? I know naked incitement to genocide when I see it. The Israeli
government and the Israel lobby are not only permitting this kind of hate
speech among pro-Israel extremists in America, but are actively encouraging it.
REPLY
The vast majority of hate speech (and violence) against Muslims is committed
by non-Jews (including fellow Muslims). Coming in a distant third are the
Zionists.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
MacDonald is strictly small change compared to this xenophobic political
machine, in terms of representing an immediate extremist threat to humanity.
And he has the virtue of being much smarter than Horowitz and Pipes. The
neocons are uniformly the dumbest group of pseudo-intellectuals on the American
scene, pure agitprop bots.
REPLY
Make up your mind. The neocons have held power for a decade; Macdonald is, you
claim, "small change." Whose the dummy?
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I strongly condemn, it goes without
saying, attempts by anyone to use MacDonald's writings to stir up hatred
against Jews or any other ethnic groups, or to use them to violate the civil
rights of anyone.
REPLY
Disingenuous. MacDonald's writings ARE hatred against Jews.
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