No Obama aligned the use of embryos in both procedures to equality, this is BOTH pragmatic and intellectual, NOT a slippery slope of flawed ideology of morally ambiguous of opposing one and remaining silent on the other
On Mar 13, 5:20 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > VT, I addressed the issue of who spoke in a more reasoned, thoughtful > manner on this subject, Obama or Bush... It was Bush by far... Both > Obama and Bush used their sense of morality (ideology as you you call > it) to decide using a pragmatic approach BUT not an intellectual > approach... Yet the pretense here Obama was "freeing science from > ideology" -- what Obama did is change the ideological guidelines under > which grant money would be given from Bush's construct to Obama's > construct... > > Now as the Presidential order dealt with stem cell research and NOT In > Vetro fertilization, what I said applied to that subject. Now you > added an additional topic "why one and not the other?"... Frankly I > do not know IF Bush opposes InVitro fertilization for humans, as it > never was part of his Presidential order limiting stem cell research > to to 21 EXISTING and developed stem cell lines, and prohibiting the > use of federal money for the creation of NEW stem cell lines... > > On Mar 13, 4:27 pm, VT VirtualTruth <[email protected]> wrote: > > > You merely repeated yourself, you did not address the issue of In > > Vetro > > fertilization vs stem cell research. Why Bush was against one and > > supported the other when both deal with the destruction of fertilize > > eggs. > > > On Mar 13, 4:22 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > To many (including those favoring use of fertilized eggs in stem cell > > > research, this is an issue where science requires a moral > > > guideline... The Left was ticked because THEIR guideline was NOT > > > used under Bush... Now under Ombama it is, and the pretense is that > > > is not about moral guidelines (theirs)... > > > > The reality here is Bush thought about and discussed both sides of the > > > debate... Obama refused to, in part because I suspect he sees one a > > > valid side (his) and his POV opponents are non-rational. Obama is > > > wrong an arrogant... > > > > On Mar 13, 3:53 pm, VT VirtualTruth <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > My response is why wasn't invetro insemination also banned? > > > > Are not fetuses destroyed in this procedure > > > > > It was about ideology not reality. > > > > > On Mar 13, 12:35 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > In this article the question relates to which President is more > > > > > serious and honest about stem cell research... Not only is Obama less > > > > > serious, but he is dishonest and a far greater ideologue... > > > > > >http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/03/using_embryoswithou... > > > > > > >>> That part of the ceremony, watched from the safe distance of my > > > > > >>> office, made me uneasy. The other part -- the ostentatious > > > > > >>> issuance of a memorandum on "restoring scientific integrity to > > > > > >>> government decision-making" -- would have made me walk out. > > > > > > Restoring? The implication, of course, is that while Obama is guided > > > > > solely by science, Bush was driven by dogma, ideology and politics. > > > > > > What an outrage. George Bush's nationally televised stem cell speech > > > > > was the most morally serious address on medical ethics ever given by > > > > > an American president. It was so scrupulous in presenting the best > > > > > case for both his view and the contrary view that until the last few > > > > > minutes, the listener had no idea where Bush would come out. > > > > > > Obama's address was morally unserious in the extreme. It was > > > > > populated, as his didactic discourses always are, with a forest of > > > > > straw men. Such as his admonition that we must resist the "false > > > > > choice between sound science and moral values." Yet, exactly 2 minutes > > > > > and 12 seconds later he went on to declare that he would never open > > > > > the door to the "use of cloning for human reproduction." > > > > > > Does he not think that a cloned human would be of extraordinary > > > > > scientific interest? And yet he banned it. > > > > > > Is he so obtuse not to see that he had just made a choice of ethics > > > > > over science? Yet, unlike President Bush, who painstakingly explained > > > > > the balance of ethical and scientific goods he was trying to achieve, > > > > > Obama did not even pretend to make the case why some practices are > > > > > morally permissible and others not. > > > > > > This is not just intellectual laziness. It is the moral arrogance of a > > > > > man who continuously dismisses his critics as ideological while he is > > > > > guided exclusively by pragmatism (in economics, social policy, foreign > > > > > policy) and science in medical ethics. > > > > > > Science has everything to say about what is possible. Science has > > > > > nothing to say about what is permissible. Obama's pretense that he > > > > > will "restore science to its rightful place" and make science, not > > > > > ideology, dispositive in moral debates is yet more rhetorical sleight > > > > > of hand -- this time to abdicate decision-making and color his own > > > > > ideological preferences as authentically "scientific." > > > > > > Dr. James Thomson, the discoverer of embryonic stem cells, said "if > > > > > human embryonic stem cell research does not make you at least a little > > > > > bit uncomfortable, you have not thought about it enough." Obama > > > > > clearly has not. > > > > > > On Mar 13, 10:37 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > and Intellectual they both are NOT > > > > > > >http://the-undercurrent.com/paper/obama-the-intellectual/ > > > > > > > >>> In action, Obama is clearly not an intellectual. He, like Bush > > > > > > >>> and other politicians, is a pragmatist—the exact opposite of an > > > > > > >>> intellectual. Issue after issue, including taxes, the Iraq war, > > > > > > >>> and the environment, reveals that Obama has made decisions, not > > > > > > >>> with reference to firm principles derived from a careful and > > > > > > >>> scholarly investigation of the facts, but by trying to find > > > > > > >>> some middle ground in a landscape of competing opinions. > > > > > > > What is different about Obama is that he self-consciously knows and > > > > > > proclaims his approach. But what’s so significant about that, if the > > > > > > approach itself is anti-intellectual? Obama openly embraces the view > > > > > > that it is impossible to use the intellect to ascertain the right > > > > > > way > > > > > > to handle the war or deal with the economy, and so he adopts the > > > > > > tack > > > > > > of just trying things and seeing what happens. Consider Obama’s > > > > > > claim > > > > > > that his “core economic theory is pragmatism, figuring out what > > > > > > works” (“Obamanomics,” NYT, 8/20/08). How is this any different from > > > > > > prior, allegedly non-intellectual politicians, other than that those > > > > > > politicians didn’t happen to be explicit about their methodology? > > > > > > > However much Obama seems to sport the trappings of an > > > > > > intellectual—and > > > > > > clearly he does—in practice, his policy consists in shooting from > > > > > > the > > > > > > hip, making short-range decisions without adherence to any firm set > > > > > > of > > > > > > guiding convictions. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. 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