Please Mark stop misrepresenting my words when my words are clear... >>> I do not understand how or from where you get this idea that "stateless >>> terror" is anything new or that was not considered when the Covenants were >>> written.
1) I did not claim stateless terrorism was new... YOU said I claimed that... And then attack me for my error which I never made... 2) Let examine what I said... >>> "it did NOT take into account GLOBAL stateless groups like AQ" When the Geneva accords were written, stateless groups were local or regional, but NOT GLOBAL... Why??? Stateless group lacked the internal structure to support such a global presence -- only nation- states did (and then primarily large nation-states0... The communication and travel technologies to allow for such infrastructure did not exist... Semi-official trading company as the British East Asia Company came closest, but they where effectively an agent of Britain... Chinese associations as the Tang also had regional infrastructure, but it did not seek to overthrow local governments as a principle... Or one can suggest corporations are transcending stateless organizations, but they in the end require the official backing of some nation-state complete with the nation-states military... AQ however is an independent stateless group with its own laws, military, and courts that has a global presence... And the Geneva Accords never addressed or took into account such a global stateless group... Not you shift meaning when you change "take into account" into "did not consider"... One can consider a possibility and dismiss any need to address it... But if the formal structure takes into account, it requires addressing the issue in an institutional fashion... So again you twist words, create straw men, and ignore my basic question --- Is torture ok if you can save thousands??? If no, then you embrace the slippery slope that the needs of one outweigh the needs of the many all the time, that is most folks would disagree with you... If yes, then the question did using methods you define as torture save thousand is pertinent... Even the NYT times now admits that Obama deleted key paragraphs of the memos that so stated it did save thousands... Such an omission of course was deliberate so as to spin the debate, a rather dishonest act by Obama... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=2 FYI atleast some Lefties are being honest and arguing even it it did save lives torture is never good... I part with my concern about Pakistan... Paki officials have tried to bargin with AQ and the Taliban... The agreements have always been ignored or broken openly by the Taliban and AQ... Now the lowland citizens are being invaded by the Paki Highlanders... Not unlike the history of Scotland... The Highlanders 1,000 year threat to power was broken by a brutal and long fight before and after 1745... And forced deportation to America... What do you do with an enemy who demands your destruction??? On Apr 23, 10:34 am, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > It DID take "such groups" into account. It also took US treatment of "such > groups" into account as the US in the 20th century had at one time a habit > of decapitating the dead stuffing the mouths with meat and burying the parts > separately. Nice history you have there. > > It has all been done before.... like car bombs... first one was LA in the > early 20th century.. > > I do not understand how or from where you get this idea that "stateless > terror" is anything new or that was not considered when the Covenants were > written. > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:05 AM, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > My words were posts in an earlier post > > > Once again you twist words... I said "it did NOT take into account > > global stateless groups like AQ" Huge difference between "did not > > exist" and "did not take into account" > > > Either you are not reading the post carefullly or you intentionally > > twist words... > > > On Apr 22, 6:30 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> wrote: > > > jgg, > > > > Your evasion of a direct question and saying that any of my statements > > > are fallacious even down to denying "turtle syndrome" when faced with > > > an overwhelming fear/adrenaline situation is ludicrous. You continue > > > to try to debate based on press reports and from a purely ignorant > > > view of other cultures and traditions while inserting a holier than > > > thou attitude of kneejerk revisionism and what a withdrawal from or > > > allowed individual interpretation to the conventions will certainly > > > bring about. > > > > To say that the rest of the world has not been dealing withh stateless > > > terrorist groups on a successful basis for a long time before the US > > > involvement is just STUPID. > > > > Here is a PARTIAL list : > > > > AFGHANISTAN > > > > NAME: al Qaeda > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: Established by Osama bin Laden in the late > > > 1980s. > > > > GOALS: Establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by > > > working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it > > > deems "non-Islamic," and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from > > > Muslim countries. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Is suspected of involvement in the > > > October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Aden, Yemen. Conducted the > > > bombings in August 1998 of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and > > > Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 persons and injured > > > more than 5,000 others. Claims to have shot down U.S. helicopters and > > > killed U.S. servicemen in Somalia in 1993, and to have conducted three > > > bombings that targeted U.S. troops in Aden, Yemen, in December 1992. > > > > STRENGTH: May have several hundred to several thousand members. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Al Qaeda has a worldwide reach with cells in a > > > number of countries, and benefits from its ties to Sunni extremist > > > networks. Bin Laden and his top associates reside in Afghanistan, and > > > the group maintains terrorist training camps there. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: Serves as the umbrella organization for a worldwide > > > network that includes many Sunni Islamic extremist groups, such as > > > Egyptian Islamic Jihad, some members of al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya, the > > > Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin. > > > > COMMENTS: Bin Laden is the son of a wealthy Saudi family, and uses his > > > inheritance to finance the group. Al Qaeda also operates moneymaking > > > front organizations, solicits donations, and illicitly siphons funds > > > from donations to Muslim charitable organizations. > > > > ALGERIA > > > > NAME: Armed Islamic Group (GIA) > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1992. > > > > GOALS: GIA aims to overthrow the secular Algerian regime and replace > > > it with an Islamic state. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: None. > > > > STRENGTH: Unknown, probably several hundred to several thousand. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Algeria. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: Algerian expatriates and members of the Salafi Group for > > > Call and Combat (GSPC) splinter group abroad, many of whom reside in > > > Western Europe, provide financial and logistic support. In addition, > > > the Algerian government has accused Iran and Sudan of supporting > > > Algerian extremists. > > > > COMMENTS: The GSPC splinter faction appears to have eclipsed the GIA > > > since approximately 1998 and is currently assessed to be the most > > > effective remaining armed group inside Algeria. A U.S. Designated > > > Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" during 2000. > > > > NAME: The Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC) > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1996. > > > > GOALS: Overthrow the Algerian government and impose fundamentalist > > > Islamic theocracy. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Unknown. > > > > STRENGTH: Unknown; suspected to be several hundred to several > > > thousand. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Algeria. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: Algerian expatriates and GSPC members living abroad. > > > The Algerian government has accused Iran and Sudan of supporting > > > Algerian extremists. The GSPC may also receive support from the Armed > > > Islamic Group (GIA) network in Europe, Africa and the Middle East. > > > Some GSPC members in Europe are suspected of having ties with other > > > North African extremists sympathetic to al Qaeda. > > > > COMMENTS: GSPC is a splinter group of the GIA, and has gained popular > > > support through its pledge not to attack civilians inside Algeria > > > (although it has not kept the pledge). It was designated a Foreign > > > Terrorist Organization (FTO) on March 27, 2002. > > > > CAMBODIA > > > > NAME: Khmer Rouge/The Party of Democratic Kampuchea > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1970s > > > > GOALS: Overthrow the Cambodian government. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: None > > > > STRENGTH: Fewer than 500, possibly no more than 100. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Outlying provinces in Cambodia, particularly in > > > the northwest along the border with Thailand. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: None. > > > > COMMENTS: The group was a Communist insurgency that conducted a > > > campaign of genocide, killing more than 1 million in the late 1970s. > > > Disintegrated due to defections in the late 1990s. > > > > CHILE > > > > NAME: Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front (FPMR) > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1983. > > > > GOALS: Carry out missions of the Chilean Communist Party as its armed > > > wing. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Attacks civilians and international > > > targets, including U.S. businesses and Mormon churches. Bombed two > > > restaurants in the U.S. in 1993. > > > > STRENGTH: 50 to 100. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Chile, United States. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: None. > > > > COLOMBIA > > > > NAME: National Liberation Army (ELN)—Colombia > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1965. > > > > GOALS: Replacing the current government with a Marxist regime. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Conducted a campaign of mass > > > kidnappings during the late 1990s, each of which involved at least one > > > U.S. citizen. > > > > STRENGTH: Approximately 3,000 to 6,000 armed combatants and an unknown > > > number of active supporters. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Rural and mountainous areas of north, > > > northeast, and southwest Colombia and Venezuela border regions. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: Cuba provides some medical care and political > > > consultation. > > > > COMMENTS: Marxist insurgent group formed by urban intellectuals > > > inspired by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara. A Designated Foreign > > > Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" during 2000. > > > > NAME: Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1964. > > > > GOALS: Replacing the current government with a Marxist regime. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: In March 1999, the FARC executed > > > three U.S. Indian rights activists in Venezuela after it kidnapped > > > them in Colombia. > > > > STRENGTH: Approximately 9,000 to 12,000 armed combatants and an > > > unknown number of supporters, mostly in rural areas. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: Colombia with some activities — extortion, > > > kidnapping, logistics — in Venezuela, Panama, and Ecuador. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: Cuba provides some medical care and political > > > consultation. > > > > COMMENTS: Established as the military wing of the Colombian Communist > > > Party. FARC continues peace negotiations with the Pastrana > > > administration, which has granted the group several concessions, > > > including a demilitarized zone used as a venue for negotiations. A > > > Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) listed as "active" > > > during 2000. > > > > NAME: United Self-Defense Forces/Group of Colombia (AUC-Autodefensas > > > Unidas de Colombia) > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: 1997. > > > > GOALS: Claims its primary objective is to protect its sponsors from > > > insurgents. > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: The paramilitaries have not taken > > > action against U.S. personnel. > > > > STRENGTH: In early 2001, the government estimated there were 8,000 > > > paramilitary fighters, including former military and insurgent > > > personnel. > > > > OPERATIONAL LOCATIONS: AUC forces are strongest in the north and > > > northwest: Antioquia, Cordoba, Sucre, Bolivar, Atlantico, and > > > Magdalena Departments of Colombia. > > > > AFFILIATIONS: None outside Colombia. The AUC is supported by economic > > > elites, drug traffickers, and local communities lacking effective > > > government security. > > > > COMMENTS: The AUC — commonly referred to as autodefensas or > > > paramilitaries — is an umbrella organization formed in April 1997 to > > > consolidate most local and regional paramilitary groups each with the > > > mission to > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
