That is why Eisenhower was such a good President, he appreciated the cost in men for war... And only to be used if no other options are available...
On Apr 23, 5:04 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > Wars break all the rules. Generals/Admirals knew how many men they > would sacrifice in WWI and WWII as expendables/losses. Eisenhower > unleashed the Russians into Berlin. The same has been going on since > the first democracy-Greece. > > On Apr 23, 2:10 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>> Your very basic claim that terror tactics (torture) must all of a > > >>> sudden be used because of US involvement > > > Wrong... I assume the US acts the same way when it is seeking to > > combat groups that terrorize... That is using non lethal methods to > > extract timely and critical information from terrorists is more the > > rule rather than the exception...... Many countries willingly use > > lethal methods in a crunch... To suggest otherwise ignores > > otherwise... Hell, the Gitmo prisoners were better treated that the > > IRA in Northern Ireland, or how Iran treats political prisoners, or > > does China, South Africa, Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or so many > > others... > > > You like so many make an issue of US shortcomings while ignoring > > others --- as Hamas, the PLO, Hizbollah, as Sadr's militias, or so > > many others... > > > >>> The conventions are there to protect Humanity from from itself. To > > > reinterpret or at times flat out ignore these covenants for the short > > term > > geographically limited American minority interest while ignoring what > > this > > does and permits to be done in the mind of the terrorist is just > > idiotic. > > > Yet all nations do it... The British actions in Burma in the early > > 50's, the French in Algeria, the Russians in Georgia, The French in > > NorthWest Africa, the AU peace keeping troops in Africa, the Chinese > > in Tibet, The Sudanese in Dafer.... ANd their callousness and abuse > > and branch of the accords are far graver... > > > >>> SPRAY THE POPPY CROP > > > and then deny the Afghani farmer a living... Not unlike the edict > > the EU gave Zimbabwe, send us you grain refuse free grain to feed your > > starving or else we will stop buying your grain... All the while > > giving European farmers money for growing crops that cost many times > > what the Zimbabwean grain cost... > > > On Apr 23, 2:09 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Your very basic claim that terror tactics (torture) must all of a sudden > > > be > > > used because of US involvement and their moral use of amoral tacctics is > > > necessary is exactly equatable to saying that something new is in the wind > > > and that the internationally legal methods as outlined in plain ( fill in > > > th > > > language) in the conventions is either not suitable or sufficient, did not > > > envision terrorists what Americans are considering "special circumstance" > > > when it is indeed an age old problem says EXACTLY that. > > > > The conventions are there to protect Humanity from from itself. To > > > reinterpret or at times flat out ignore these covenants for the short term > > > geographically limited American minority interest while ignoring what this > > > does and permits to be done in the mind of the terrorist is just idiotic. > > > > Want to truly fight terror .......... SPRAY THE POPPY CROP.... your nation > > > supplied the seed which gives the terrorists a 3 billion dollar income > > > every > > > year. Then cancel Moslems use of any sort of public or private > > > transportation outside their own nations. > > > > Problem solved. > > > > No army, no torture, no denial of rights. > > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 9:34 AM, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Please Mark stop misrepresenting my words when my words are clear... > > > > > >>> I do not understand how or from where you get this idea that > > > > >>> "stateless > > > > terror" is anything new or that was not considered when the Covenants > > > > were > > > > written. > > > > > 1) I did not claim stateless terrorism was new... YOU said I claimed > > > > that... And then attack me for my error which I never made... > > > > > 2) Let examine what I said... > > > > > >>> "it did NOT take into account GLOBAL stateless groups like AQ" > > > > > When the Geneva accords were written, stateless groups were local or > > > > regional, but NOT GLOBAL... Why??? Stateless group lacked the > > > > internal structure to support such a global presence -- only nation- > > > > states did (and then primarily large nation-states0... The > > > > communication and travel technologies to allow for such infrastructure > > > > did not exist... > > > > > Semi-official trading company as the British East Asia Company came > > > > closest, but they where effectively an agent of Britain... Chinese > > > > associations as the Tang also had regional infrastructure, but it did > > > > not seek to overthrow local governments as a principle... Or one can > > > > suggest corporations are transcending stateless organizations, but > > > > they in the end require the official backing of some nation-state > > > > complete with the nation-states military... AQ however is an > > > > independent stateless group with its own laws, military, and courts > > > > that has a global presence... And the Geneva Accords never addressed > > > > or took into account such a global stateless group... > > > > > Not you shift meaning when you change "take into account" into "did > > > > not consider"... One can consider a possibility and dismiss any need > > > > to address it... But if the formal structure takes into account, it > > > > requires addressing the issue in an institutional fashion... > > > > > So again you twist words, create straw men, and ignore my basic > > > > question --- Is torture ok if you can save thousands??? If no, then > > > > you embrace the slippery slope that the needs of one outweigh the > > > > needs of the many all the time, that is most folks would disagree with > > > > you... If yes, then the question did using methods you define as > > > > torture save thousand is pertinent... > > > > > Even the NYT times now admits that Obama deleted key paragraphs of the > > > > memos that so stated it did save thousands... Such an omission of > > > > course was deliberate so as to spin the debate, a rather dishonest act > > > > by Obama... > > > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=2 > > > > > FYI atleast some Lefties are being honest and arguing even it it did > > > > save lives torture is never good... > > > > > I part with my concern about Pakistan... Paki officials have tried > > > > to bargin with AQ and the Taliban... The agreements have always been > > > > ignored or broken openly by the Taliban and AQ... Now the lowland > > > > citizens are being invaded by the Paki Highlanders... Not unlike the > > > > history of Scotland... The Highlanders 1,000 year threat to power > > > > was broken by a brutal and long fight before and after 1745... And > > > > forced deportation to America... > > > > > What do you do with an enemy who demands your destruction??? > > > > > On Apr 23, 10:34 am, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > It DID take "such groups" into account. It also took US treatment of > > > > "such > > > > > groups" into account as the US in the 20th century had at one time a > > > > habit > > > > > of decapitating the dead stuffing the mouths with meat and burying the > > > > parts > > > > > separately. Nice history you have there. > > > > > > It has all been done before.... like car bombs... first one was LA in > > > > > the > > > > > early 20th century.. > > > > > > I do not understand how or from where you get this idea that > > > > > "stateless > > > > > terror" is anything new or that was not considered when the Covenants > > > > were > > > > > written. > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:05 AM, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > My words were posts in an earlier post > > > > > > > Once again you twist words... I said "it did NOT take into account > > > > > > global stateless groups like AQ" Huge difference between "did not > > > > > > exist" and "did not take into account" > > > > > > > Either you are not reading the post carefullly or you intentionally > > > > > > twist words... > > > > > > > On Apr 22, 6:30 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > Your evasion of a direct question and saying that any of my > > > > statements > > > > > > > are fallacious even down to denying "turtle syndrome" when faced > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > an overwhelming fear/adrenaline situation is ludicrous. You > > > > > > > continue > > > > > > > to try to debate based on press reports and from a purely ignorant > > > > > > > view of other cultures and traditions while inserting a holier > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > thou attitude of kneejerk revisionism and what a withdrawal from > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > allowed individual interpretation to the conventions will > > > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > bring about. > > > > > > > > To say that the rest of the world has not been dealing withh > > > > stateless > > > > > > > terrorist groups on a successful basis for a long time before the > > > > > > > US > > > > > > > involvement is just STUPID. > > > > > > > > Here is a PARTIAL list : > > > > > > > > AFGHANISTAN > > > > > > > > NAME: al Qaeda > > > > > > > > DATE STARTED/FIRST ACTIVE: Established by Osama bin Laden in the > > > > > > > late > > > > > > > 1980s. > > > > > > > > GOALS: Establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by > > > > > > > working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > deems "non-Islamic," and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from > > > > > > > Muslim countries. > > > > > > > > MAIN ANTI-U.S. ACTIVITIES TO DATE: Is suspected of involvement in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Aden, Yemen. Conducted the > > > > > > > bombings in August 1998 of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 persons and > > > > > > > injured > > > > > > > more than 5,000 others. Claims to have shot down U.S. helicopters > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > killed U.S. > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
