We didn't torture to protect America from attacks, we tortured to try to get Intel linking Saddam to 9/11. Your premise is wrong so your argument is flawed. Beside Bush said repeatedly we did not torture, he lied!
On Apr 22, 10:11 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > As I suggested, in your POV thousands killed IS AN ACCEPTABLE price > for no "torture"... That is not the POV of most... You argue for a > consistent AND inhumane RULE OF LAW... At one time Slavery was > supported by RULE OF LAW.... Would you have then supported Southern > Slavery in 1860??? > > On Apr 21, 5:05 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > No, it is EXACTLY the same.... when arrested the accused nterrorists are > > simply people with no ID and no proof.... wrong place wrong time.... torture > > is used to sort them out. > > > Torture is NOT acceptable on any level, I would not care whose child or > > family is at risk, including my own. The is and MUST remain without emotion. > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > NOw you are mixing apples and oranges... NO ONE is arguing for a > > > universial application of torture... The argument here is about > > > using non lethal means to extract critical life saving information > > > from PROFESSIONAL terrorists --- a very limited and far greater > > > specified application than what you are seeking to argue... > > > > On Apr 21, 3:19 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > So the various police forces in the US should return to the day of the > > > > rubber hoses ?? And when your son/daughter/family member does not "rat > > > out" > > > > its ok to "save the many" by using it ?? > > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:16 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > The Left does not understand mental torture/extraction of information. > > > > > Mossad does, evidently.//I don't think the ME terrorists have arrived > > > > > at the mental category of interrogations which the Left assumes. The > > > > > Left is a victim oriented mentality to begin with- pass the Band-Aids. > > > > > As unemployment and crime rises in their cities and their experience > > > > > first hand challenges them, we will see. > > > > > > On Apr 21, 1:46 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > One question NOT debated is "If these methods did save hundreds of > > > > > > lives, is it justified??? If one takes the position of no, then you > > > > > > place yourself into the position of saying "not torturing 1 man is > > > > > > more important than hundreds of lives".... To date the Left ignores > > > > > > this question with the unproven claim the "torture will never give > > > you > > > > > > any worthwhile information"... > > > > > > > On Apr 20, 10:46 pm, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I start out where I left off last night. > > > > > > > > That I am attempting to understand and comprehend the facts of > > > > > > > what > > > > > took > > > > > > > place with our treatment of prisoners. The thirty detainess that > > > have > > > > > > > been specifically referenced by Bybee, Bradbury and to a degree > > > > > > > Yoo > > > and > > > > > > > Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's "Working Group > > > > > > > Within > > > The > > > > > > > Department of Defense"; these thirty detainees were subjected to > > > > > enhanced > > > > > > > interrogation tactics, which by Department of Defense and CIA > > > > > classification > > > > > > > were either level I, II or III categories of enhhanced tactics, > > > (Level > > > > > III > > > > > > > being the most alarming and disconcerting) and according to > > > recently > > > > > > > released information, only three detainees were ever subjected to > > > Level > > > > > III > > > > > > > tactics. > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone can deny that of these thirty individuals, > > > > > > > all > > > > > were > > > > > > > undoubtedly intent on destroying our very way of life, and the > > > United > > > > > States > > > > > > > as we know it. Obviously, with the more information that is > > > released, > > > > > > > the better to understand and comprehend the facts. As I said last > > > > > evening, > > > > > > > if I sound like I am playing "devil's advocate" it is only my own > > > means > > > > > > > and personal mechanism to comprehend and understand the facts, as > > > we > > > > > (with > > > > > > > unclassified security clearances) know them to be. I make no > > > > > argument > > > > > > > here. Instead, I am only trying to ascertain two distinct issues: > > > > > > > > (1) "Whether the CIA interrogators', (or other American > > > > > > > "authorized > > > > > > > interrogators' ") use of enhanced interrogation tactics > > > > > > > constituted > > > > > > > "torture"; and > > > > > > > > (2) "Whether the United States somehow avoided or evaded > > > > > > > principles > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > Geneva Accords, as well as the Convention Against Torture and > > > > > > > Other > > > > > Cruel, > > > > > > > Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; (e.g.; "Cat") and > > > other > > > > > > > international treatise of which the United States is a signatory; > > > thus > > > > > > > making the actions of the Bush Administration unconstitutional. > > > > > > > > ** Not only did I send my initial message predominately regarding > > > > > Steven > > > > > > > Bradbury's May 10, 2005 and May 30, 2005 Memorandums to > > > PoliticalForum, > > > > > but > > > > > > > I also sent it to several attorney friends of mine, one here in > > > Tampa > > > > > and > > > > > > > one in Washington, D.C. who specializes in International Law. I > > > > > also > > > > > > > sent my message to another attorney in Gainesville Florida who I > > > > > believe > > > > > > > forwarded my message to other attornies, or at least she forwarded > > > the > > > > > > > message to individuals who seem to have given these issues a good > > > deal > > > > > of > > > > > > > thought. Surprisingly, (with a couple of exceptions) most of the > > > > > replies > > > > > > > by counsel have been very much colored by partisan politics, which > > > was > > > > > a bit > > > > > > > of a shock to me. It would appear that their cognitive and > > > > > > > critical > > > > > > > thinking skills and abilities are so clouded by their apparent > > > hatred > > > > > for > > > > > > > the previous Adminstration, that they can no longer see this issue > > > from > > > > > a > > > > > > > rational, non-partisan standpoint. > > > > > > > > A couple of thoughts that keep coming to mind: > > > > > > > > If a prisoner, say in any United States jail or prison is a danger > > > to > > > > > > > himself, or to others that may very well effect the safety or > > > security > > > > > of > > > > > > > the prison, because of this prisoner's mental disability, and the > > > > > prison > > > > > > > officials or his jailers administer psychotropic drugs upon the > > > > > prisoner > > > > > > > against his will in order to maintain safety and security in the > > > > > prison, > > > > > > > does this constitute "torture" to the prisoner? > > > > > > > > I know that this question, "dodges the bullet" so to speak, but > > > > > assuming > > > > > > > that Bradbury's May 10th Memorandum's facts are correct, (as well > > > as > > > > > Yoo's > > > > > > > March 31, 2004 Memorandum) and in fact, the enhanced interrogation > > > > > tactics, > > > > > > > whether they constituted torture, or whether they didn't, > > > > > > > prevented > > > > > hundreds > > > > > > > of thousands of lives lost by a dirty bomb going off in Washington > > > > > D.C., or > > > > > > > another skyscraper being hit in Los Angeles, or any other > > > metropolitan > > > > > area > > > > > > > in the United States, or in Western Europe, were the enhanced > > > > > interrogation > > > > > > > techniques sustainable and justified? > > > > > > > > There are allegations that if true, are deeply disturbing. Joseph > > > > > > > Margulies who was lead counsel in *Rasul v, Bush*, 542 U.S. 466 > > > > > (2004) has > > > > > > > made allegations that admittedly he never witnessed first hand, > > > that > > > > > he > > > > > > > alleged took place at Gitmo and Baghram, but nevertheless, I > > > believe > > > > > would > > > > > > > be hard to get around 18 U.S.C. 2340 *et. seq.* *See* *Also* > > > > > "Guantanamo > > > > > > > and the Abuse of Presidential Power"; Margulies, Jos. (2006). > > > > > > > > Attached is a a list from the January 15, 2003 Memo written by > > > > > Rumsfeld's > > > > > > > "Working Group Within The Department of Defense". Do you consider > > > > > these > > > > > > > enhanced interrogation tactics as "Acts of Torture"?? > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Lobo <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > MARK > > > > > > > > > I'm not trying to defend Clinton's actions (or Bush Senior's or > > > > > Ronald > > > > > > > > Reagan's). I agree that those renditions were illegal in most > > > cases. > > > > > > > > > But there are degrees of illegality and of moral wrongness, and > > > to > > > > > say > > > > > > > > that there is no difference between delivering a kidnappee with > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > legal outstanding warrant to a foreign court to stand trial, and > > > > > > > > delivering one (who might simply be the victim of a bad rumor, > > > > > > > > or > > > an > > > > > > > > anonymous tip by someone collecting a bounty) to foreign > > > torturers... > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > > > > > > > On Apr 20, 8:19 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > There is NO difference. > > > > > > > > > > Kidnapping is kidnapping........ There is no justification for > > > the > > > > > US to > > > > > > > > act > > > > > > > > > on a warrant unless the suspect is on US soil. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine what an uproar would take place if other nations went > > > into > > > > > the US > > > > > > > > > and started taking people they had issued warrants for... > > > > > > > > > > Rule of law without following the rules is not rule of law. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Lobo <[email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > There is a big difference between our government kidnapping > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > limited number of people-- people against whom there were > > > > > outstanding > > > > > > > > > > foreign arrest warrants -- in order to deliver them to 3rd > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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