So why did we put Japanese to death who water tortured our troops if it is not torture?
On Apr 22, 10:27 am, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Mark <> wrote: > > No, it is EXACTLY the same.... when arrested the accused nterrorists are > simply people with no ID and no proof.... wrong place wrong time.... torture > is used to sort them out. > Torture is NOT acceptable on any level, I would not care whose child or > family is at risk, including my own. The is and MUST remain without emotion. > > ================== > > Mark, > > This is part of the dilemma, and I am still not convinced, at least in my > mind, that Level I, Level II or Level III enhanced interrogation tactics > constitute torture. I noticed that no one responded to my question > regarding whether these tactics (attached) from Rumsfeld's "Defense > Department Working Group" constituted "torture". > > It is also misplaced to somehow now accuse the captors (or interrogators) as > torturing individuals to sort them out, because they had no identification. > I don't believe that this happened. There is no evidence of this ever > taking place, and I am unaware of any allegations to such activity. > > There were only 28 individuals who were exposed to either Level I, Level II > or Level III enhanced interrogation tactics, and it was because these > individuals had been determined to be knowledgable of information that was > detrimental to our National Security. > > As Bradbury's May 10th, 2005 Memorandum points out, and as former Vice > President Dick Cheney stated on FOX News on April 20th and April 21st, our > Nation's intelligence agencies had relatively little information on al > Queida, the Taliban, and those who were flying jets into our skyscrapers. > We were being attacked (or thought we were) by chemicals in the mail, (you > do recall the Anthrax scare?) and it was pretty much assumed that the > "First Wave" of attacks by al Queida on September 11, 2001, were not going > to be the last. We were at war, with an enemy we knew relatively little > about. > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> NOw you are mixing apples and oranges... NO ONE is arguing for a > >> universial application of torture... The argument here is about > >> using non lethal means to extract critical life saving information > >> from PROFESSIONAL terrorists --- a very limited and far greater > >> specified application than what you are seeking to argue... > > >> On Apr 21, 3:19 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > So the various police forces in the US should return to the day of the > >> > rubber hoses ?? And when your son/daughter/family member does not "rat > >> out" > >> > its ok to "save the many" by using it ?? > > >> > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 1:16 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > The Left does not understand mental torture/extraction of information. > >> > > Mossad does, evidently.//I don't think the ME terrorists have arrived > >> > > at the mental category of interrogations which the Left assumes. The > >> > > Left is a victim oriented mentality to begin with- pass the Band-Aids. > >> > > As unemployment and crime rises in their cities and their experience > >> > > first hand challenges them, we will see. > > >> > > On Apr 21, 1:46 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > One question NOT debated is "If these methods did save hundreds of > >> > > > lives, is it justified??? If one takes the position of no, then you > >> > > > place yourself into the position of saying "not torturing 1 man is > >> > > > more important than hundreds of lives".... To date the Left ignores > >> > > > this question with the unproven claim the "torture will never give > >> you > >> > > > any worthwhile information"... > > >> > > > On Apr 20, 10:46 pm, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > I start out where I left off last night. > > >> > > > > That I am attempting to understand and comprehend the facts of > >> what > >> > > took > >> > > > > place with our treatment of prisoners. The thirty detainess that > >> have > >> > > > > been specifically referenced by Bybee, Bradbury and to a degree > >> Yoo and > >> > > > > Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's "Working Group > >> Within The > >> > > > > Department of Defense"; these thirty detainees were subjected to > >> > > enhanced > >> > > > > interrogation tactics, which by Department of Defense and CIA > >> > > classification > >> > > > > were either level I, II or III categories of enhhanced tactics, > >> (Level > >> > > III > >> > > > > being the most alarming and disconcerting) and according to > >> recently > >> > > > > released information, only three detainees were ever subjected to > >> Level > >> > > III > >> > > > > tactics. > > >> > > > > I don't think anyone can deny that of these thirty individuals, > >> all > >> > > were > >> > > > > undoubtedly intent on destroying our very way of life, and the > >> United > >> > > States > >> > > > > as we know it. Obviously, with the more information that is > >> released, > >> > > > > the better to understand and comprehend the facts. As I said last > >> > > evening, > >> > > > > if I sound like I am playing "devil's advocate" it is only my own > >> means > >> > > > > and personal mechanism to comprehend and understand the facts, as > >> we > >> > > (with > >> > > > > unclassified security clearances) know them to be. I make no > >> > > argument > >> > > > > here. Instead, I am only trying to ascertain two distinct issues: > > >> > > > > (1) "Whether the CIA interrogators', (or other American > >> "authorized > >> > > > > interrogators' ") use of enhanced interrogation tactics > >> constituted > >> > > > > "torture"; and > > >> > > > > (2) "Whether the United States somehow avoided or evaded > >> principles of > >> > > the > >> > > > > Geneva Accords, as well as the Convention Against Torture and > >> Other > >> > > Cruel, > >> > > > > Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; (e.g.; "Cat") and > >> other > >> > > > > international treatise of which the United States is a signatory; > >> thus > >> > > > > making the actions of the Bush Administration unconstitutional. > > >> > > > > ** Not only did I send my initial message predominately regarding > >> > > Steven > >> > > > > Bradbury's May 10, 2005 and May 30, 2005 Memorandums to > >> PoliticalForum, > >> > > but > >> > > > > I also sent it to several attorney friends of mine, one here in > >> Tampa > >> > > and > >> > > > > one in Washington, D.C. who specializes in International Law. I > >> > > also > >> > > > > sent my message to another attorney in Gainesville Florida who I > >> > > believe > >> > > > > forwarded my message to other attornies, or at least she forwarded > >> the > >> > > > > message to individuals who seem to have given these issues a good > >> deal > >> > > of > >> > > > > thought. Surprisingly, (with a couple of exceptions) most of the > >> > > replies > >> > > > > by counsel have been very much colored by partisan politics, which > >> was > >> > > a bit > >> > > > > of a shock to me. It would appear that their cognitive and > >> critical > >> > > > > thinking skills and abilities are so clouded by their apparent > >> hatred > >> > > for > >> > > > > the previous Adminstration, that they can no longer see this issue > >> from > >> > > a > >> > > > > rational, non-partisan standpoint. > > >> > > > > A couple of thoughts that keep coming to mind: > > >> > > > > If a prisoner, say in any United States jail or prison is a danger > >> to > >> > > > > himself, or to others that may very well effect the safety or > >> security > >> > > of > >> > > > > the prison, because of this prisoner's mental disability, and the > >> > > prison > >> > > > > officials or his jailers administer psychotropic drugs upon the > >> > > prisoner > >> > > > > against his will in order to maintain safety and security in the > >> > > prison, > >> > > > > does this constitute "torture" to the prisoner? > > >> > > > > I know that this question, "dodges the bullet" so to speak, but > >> > > assuming > >> > > > > that Bradbury's May 10th Memorandum's facts are correct, (as well > >> as > >> > > Yoo's > >> > > > > March 31, 2004 Memorandum) and in fact, the enhanced interrogation > >> > > tactics, > >> > > > > whether they constituted torture, or whether they didn't, > >> prevented > >> > > hundreds > >> > > > > of thousands of lives lost by a dirty bomb going off in Washington > >> > > D.C., or > >> > > > > another skyscraper being hit in Los Angeles, or any other > >> metropolitan > >> > > area > >> > > > > in the United States, or in Western Europe, were the enhanced > >> > > interrogation > >> > > > > techniques sustainable and justified? > > >> > > > > There are allegations that if true, are deeply disturbing. Joseph > >> > > > > Margulies who was lead counsel in *Rasul v, Bush*, 542 U.S. 466 > >> > > (2004) has > >> > > > > made allegations that admittedly he never witnessed first hand, > >> that > >> > > he > >> > > > > alleged took place at Gitmo and Baghram, but nevertheless, I > >> believe > >> > > would > >> > > > > be hard to get around 18 U.S.C. 2340 *et. seq.* *See* *Also* > >> > > "Guantanamo > >> > > > > and the Abuse of Presidential Power"; Margulies, Jos. (2006). > > >> > > > > Attached is a a list from the January 15, 2003 Memo written by > >> > > Rumsfeld's > >> > > > > "Working Group Within The Department of Defense". Do you consider > >> > > these > >> > > > > enhanced interrogation tactics as "Acts of Torture"?? > > >> > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Lobo <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >> > > > > > MARK > > >> > > > > > I'm not trying to defend Clinton's actions (or Bush Senior's or > >> > > Ronald > >> > > > > > Reagan's). I agree that those renditions were illegal in most > >> cases. > > >> > > > > > But there are degrees of illegality and of moral wrongness, and > >> to > >> > > say > >> > > > > > that there is no difference between delivering a kidnappee with > >> a > >> > > > > > legal outstanding warrant to a foreign court to stand trial, and > >> > > > > > delivering one (who might simply be the victim of a bad > > ... > > read more » > > TortureOrNotTorture.pdf > 153KViewDownload --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
