Tentang peristiwa Mei 98 dan atrocity in East Timor, "Very difficult situation" menjadi dalih excuse pelanggaran kemanusiaan????????
simak wawancara di bawah ini: A Talk with Bambang Yudhoyono (int'l edition) (BUSINESSWEEK ONLINE : SEPTEMBER 11, 2000 ISSUE) Indonesia's New Defense Minister discusses his plan for restoring stability -- and why he feels the army was innocent of human-rights violations Bambang Yudhoyono rose to the rank of lieutenant-general in the Indonesian army and became its political commissar in the final days of the Suharto regime. He was put in charge of the official process of removing the army from politics and was next in line for the post of army chief. On Aug. 23, he was named Coordinating Minister for Defense & Security. The post had been left vacant for six months by General Wiranto, who was sacked in February amid an inquiry into his role in warcrimes in East Timor. Yudhoyono is now a key player in the Indonesian government's attempts to restore law and order, and make Indonesia more attractive target for foreign investment. Singapore Bureau Chief Michael Shari interviewed Yudhoyono at his official residence in Jakarta on Aug. 30. Edited excerpts of their conversation follow. Q: Is the role of the military in Indonesian politics growing or decreasing? A: Since 1998, the Indonesian military has decided to stay out of day-to-day politics. The basic idea of military reform is to go back to the role and function of the military as a defense force and move them away from politics systematically. The reform is going in the right direction. That means that the main activities of the military are now again to restructure its doctrine, its paradigm, and its rules in society. It means that the trend is moving in such a way that there is no so-called dual function of the military, there is no so-called social political mission in the military. With people like myself and some colleagues who are now working in the government, in the Cabinet, [it becomes clear] we're no longer part of the active officers who are working with the organization. But we are now true politicians, holding political posts and accomplishing political "missions." Q: What's the purpose of having recently retired senior generals in the Cabinet? A: There is no connection between us and the [military] organization. In the past, generals who held political posts still had relations with the organization. The framework was [such] that they were fulfilling the so-called dual-function mission. And now, it's completely changed. There is no more organization between us and the former organization. Q: Then why did Wahid want to appoint you, Agum Gumelar, Luhut Panjaitan, and Suryadi Sudirdja -- all retired generals -- to the Cabinet? A: Well, I think that's the prerogative of the President to select whoever [he wants] without specifying the genesis or background of the man. In my mind, the President has the right to select, to appoint, any single citizen to hold a political post. It's quite simple, I think. Q: You're still seen as having influence in the military and therefore qualified to stabilize the political situation, and therefore stabilize the economy. Is this not true? A: In this context, I'm not a retired general but the Coordinating Minister for Political, Social & Security Affairs. I do understand that we have to support the effort for the recovery of our economy by establishing a conducive climate -- legal certainty, security, law and order -- in order for our economic-recovery programs to move well. And this is my priority in this new setup. So I will concentrate my effort, together with the commanders of the TNI [acronym for Indonesian armed forces], with the chief of the police department, and with all governmental agencies to be part of restoring security, law and order, of building a good climate for business, so that Rizal Ramli's program can work well. I don't know whether President Gus Dur [a nickname for Abdurrahman Wahid] considers the fact that I have a military background. Probably, it's thought that I know how we should maintain stability and how we should maintain security, law and order, even in the difficult time of the post-crisis situation in Indonesia. Q: So how should you maintain law and order? A: There are two critical problems we face now, problems of national disintegration. We have to be able to find a just, realistic, and constitutional solution for Aceh, Maluku, and Irian Jaya. That's No. 1. If we are able to build an integrated national policy on that -- containing the economic, political, and social message, as well as law and security -- I think that we will be able to move in the right direction with a great degree of consistency. Secondly, dealing with social disharmony, law disobedience within our society, I think we have to encourage our police corps, supported indirectly by an on-call military organization, to stop the riots, stop the civil disturbances that happen in some parts of Indonesia. And there must be a national campaign to stop the lawlessness in this country. I encourage the Ministry of Home Affairs, the police corps, and all regional apparatus to be part of maintaining or restoring law and order. Q: How can you encourage them? A: Well, this new Cabinet is off to a good start. At the first meeting at our office yesterday, we agreed to put this program into a top priority. We know that the society is now demanding a sense of safety and security. They need social order. So I think we have to respond promptly. And basically, once again, we will ask everybody, all government agencies, to do whatever they can do this year to bring back the regional security, law and order. Q: Can you work with the current army brass at the moment? A: Yes. Indirectly, the military organizations and the police corps are under my scope of social, political, and security affairs. They all report to the President. But on a daily basis, I coordinate all those tasks. I synchronize the policies. I synchronize the operational activities of all those entities. I deal with [armed forces Commander-in-Chief] Admiral Widodo only because, in our system, army, navy, and air-force chiefs are not dealing with upper echelon activities, but deal with the internal management of the service. I deal directly with Admiral Widodo, General Rusdihardjo, the Ministers of Defense and Home Affairs, and the Attorney General. Q: In your opinion, why has the military not been able to stop outbreaks of violence in Aceh, Maluku, and West Papua? A: Because of many things. In Maluku, the degree of hostility among the conflicting factions is so high. And there are many traitors. And there must be also external influence. So the problem is not only to stop the fighting but also to ask everybody to reconcile. That is No. 1. So we need a different approach...to bring all regional figures to sit down and talk and try to reconcile their problems. The roots of the Aceh movement are so deep, and it's not easy to convince [Aceh] that special autonomy is the answer, as well as in Irian Jaya. But in my mind, we have to formulate and implement an integrated national policy. Secondly, we have to do whatever we can in economic, social, and political affairs, and impose legal actions and security actions if necessary. And I think our military and police need a legal framework and political decisions to act promptly, because I feel that our soldiers are afraid of being accused of violating human rights. So there must be clear-cut political direction from the political leadership. And there must be a legal umbrella so that the military and police can act promptly.... Q: Is that why the so-called nonretroactivity clause was written into an amendment to the constitution on Aug. 16, to grant soldiers amnesty from human-rights abuses? A: I would like to study that specific point before commenting. But I do hope that we go back to logic and the principles of law. Sometimes, law must be matched with real justice. There will be a distance between the text of the law and the logic and the real justice in society. But let me comment on other aspects. The Indonesian military and police were part of the former government policy.... When the political format changed because...of Indonesian reforms, I think we should not look at what has been done by the military in the past in black-and-white situations. We have to put everything in the proper context. So we have to evaluate and judge what has been done by the military in the past. Those kinds of factors are to be considered. It does not mean that we will not have freedom of movement to form a new law, new regulations, or [a new] code of conduct [for] the military.... Q: Can you explain why ethnic Chinese investors from Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan are concerned that the Indonesian military would not protect them? A: There must be a trauma. What happened in May, 1998, was a riot in Jakarta. But I could assure everybody, including the Chinese residents of this country, that the government, the police, and the military will protect everybody. No discrimination. We do not have a discriminatory policy in this matter. One of our commitments is to bring the feeling of safety and security for everybody. And the time has come, I think, that we have to prove to the world, as well as our people, that we will impose the same protection for everybody. We will pay attention to that because we are really disturbed by what happened in May, 1998. Q: Was the military involved in what happened in Jakarta in May, 1998? A: Well, I was in the military at that time. I think it's hard to believe that the military organized or got involved in that incident, I must say. Because we were obliged to maintain security. Everybody knows that the situation was very tense.... I still remember we were facing a very difficult situation. On the one hand, there was a proper President and government. On the other hand, there was a student movement that wanted a dramatic change in Indonesian politics and the Indonesian government. And the military tried to do its best to maintain security. So once again, I do believe very strongly there was no intent in the military to initiate or be part of that riot. Q: What happened in East Timor last September simply confirmed to a lot of people that the military failed to protect people in May, 1998, in Jakarta. And in both cases, witnesses claim they saw Indonesian soldiers in uniform who were directly involved. So people started to see a pattern. A: I will not actually enter that issue. Because our legal institutions are now working on that. But as a former military man, I could tell you that the situation was very difficult at that time. The crisis occurred between the pro-integration militia and the Falantil or armed element of [East Timor leader] Xanana Gusmau. When the situation is bad, it's difficult for the Indonesian military and police to stop the fighting, to control the situation. And probably one or two units, a group of people, were trapped and forced to take sides in that fighting. But as far as I know, there [was] no order from a higher authority for the Indonesian soldiers to conduct unnecessary actions. You can imagine that the situation was very difficult then. It's not easy for small unit leaders or soldiers to stay out of the fighting.... That might create the international opinion that the Indonesian military is part of the disturbances and controlled or commanded that kind of action. Again, I'd better let the let the legal process investigate and deal with this kind of incident. Q: How are you working together with Megawati Sukarnoputri and Rizal Ramli, and why were the three of you selected to do this? A: Everybody knows that our congress, the MPR, has decided to support the idea of President Gus Dur to assign the Vice-President the day-to-day business of the government. And everybody hopes that Megawati can perform her task well. And in our new structure, both Rizal Ramli and myself are supposed to play the role of coordinating ministers and also assist the Vice-President in fulfilling her duties. That's why we have to set up a new mechanism -- how should we develop policy, how should we prepare things to be decided by the President, by the Vice-President herself? In this context, we do hear criticism from society that the big weakness of the past Cabinet was lack of coordination, lack of synchronization and integration in policy and decisions. So because of that weakness, we have decided to introduce new mechanisms, a new setup, and a process of making decisions, and developing policy. That's why both of us have to assist Megawati. In turn, Megawati will assist President Gus Dur. And that's the whole task of the government. Q: Do you think that Megawati will someday be President of Indonesia? A: If you're asking me, I think everything is possible. It depends on the people, it depends on Megawati herself, and it depends on many factors now and in the future. I think President Gus Dur has given a chance to Megawati to do more in the government. With this authority, Megawati has to prove to people that she can perform well. Actually, she has a chance to be a President in the future. The people are waiting for her performance, especially in this new setup. Q: So you and Rizal are helping Megawati to help Gus Dur. This seems rather complicated. Why can't Gus Dur and Megawati just work together and run the country? A: [laughter] Let me explain it this way: Actually, we are in one team -- the President, Vice-President, two coordinating ministers, and all [the other] ministers. In practice, of course, we have to be close in setting the agenda, developing options, and making decisions.... This means the tasks given by Gus Dur can be fulfilled well. This is my paradigm, my understanding. And of course there is communication between the two. But since Megawati is given the day-to-day task of running the government, of course I have to stay close to her. Of course, I also [have to] stay close to Gus Dur. Q: Does Megawati's day-to-day authority just mean that she does what Gus Dur tells her to do, or does she have the authority to decide what to do? A: There is a presidential decree which states clearly the authority given to Megawati. And I think she will stay at that [level of] authority. Megawati is given authority to make operational decisions. That is to be elaborated in the new regulation.... What has been agreed in our option program, for example, is considered an operational matter. That kind of decision, I think, can be decided by Megawati. But I have to wait for the concrete explanation of that. Q: So you're not sure how much authority she has. A: I think she has significant authority. Some people think the authority given to Megawati is too much. Of course, there's another opinion that it's too little.... The framework is that Megawati is part of the government and part of developing solutions. It should not to be seen as, "How much power does she get vis-�-vis Gus Dur's power?" It's very dangerous if we look at power sharing in terms of political power. But again, the basic aim is to make this government more efficient, more effective, and having a higher degree of performance. Q: What's the message that you want to get across? A: We have to stay united. We have to improve our coordination. I hope that our colleagues are fully committed to being part of the solution, have loyalty to the leadership of the government -- both President Gus Dur and Megawati -- and respond to the people's need to bring back security, prosperity, and stability. http://www.ask.co.uk/ix.asp?q=Bambang+Yudhoyono&ac=none&xx=0&qid=7D9972E155047A4397B930A796196966&p=0&&sp=ix&fn=t&b=0&fo=2&r=10&io=3&fp=4&fr=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eadinfo%2Ebusinessweek%2Ecom%2F2000%2F00%5F37%2Fb3698216%2Ehtm&adurl= __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! 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