Muslim doubts on extremism: Support for Terror Wanes Among Muslim Publics By Brian Knowlton International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/14/news/pew.php FRIDAY, JULY 15, 2005 WASHINGTON People in several predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East and Asia see less justification now for violence against civilians than they did a year or two ago, and they increasingly share Western concerns about Islamic extremism, a new international poll has found. But the peculiar entanglement of religion and politics in these countries, and in Western countries with sizable Muslim minorities, produced a conflicting picture, also reflecting overwhelming Muslim dislike for Jews and powerful opposition to the U.S. presence in Iraq, the polling in 17 countries shows. The survey - conducted by the Pew Global Attitudes Project before the July 7 bombings in London, which are now attributed to Britons of Pakistani origin - found that the British public was among the least hostile to Muslims, along with Canadians and Americans. That tolerance is not unequivocal: At least four mosques in Britain have been set ablaze since the July 7 attacks. Nearly four years after the Sept. 11 attacks, and with terrorist attacks continuing around the world, a growing number of Muslims say that violence against civilian targets is never justified, Pew found. That figure is highest in Morocco, followed by Indonesia and Turkey, with big majorities rejecting suicide bombing as an acceptable means of defending Islam. Yet, roughly half of the Muslims questioned in Jordan, Lebanon, and Morocco said that in Iraq, suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners could be justified. A belief that democratic governance would work for the Muslim world has risen sharply. But at the same time, in many Muslim countries, support is strong for a greater Islamic role in national governments. The poll was conducted for Pew among 17,000 people from late April to early June. It offers an unusually broad look at Muslim attitudes, and at Western attitudes on a range of Muslim issues. The survey found a sharp drop in the numbers of Muslims saying they would support violence against civilians in defense of Islam. This was most striking in countries that themselves have been hit by high-profile bombings. Support for such violence thus dropped sharply in Lebanon, where Rafik Hariri, a former prime minister, was killed in February, and in Morocco, where suicide bombers killed dozens of people in Casablanca in 2003. (In every instance, support dropped sharply when people were asked to contemplate attacks in their own country.) Support for violence against civilians also decreased in Indonesia, which suffered a big decline in tourism after the Bali bombings of October 2002. Forty-five percent of Indonesians surveyed said they viewed Islamic extremism as posing a threat to their country. Still larger percentages in Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey said they viewed Islamic extremism as posing a very or fairly great threat to their country. There was no consensus about the causes of Islamic extremism. Lebanese and Jordanians pointed to U.S. policies; Moroccans and Pakistanis to poverty and joblessness; Turks to lack of education; and Indonesians to immorality. The polling was conducted in six predominantly Muslim countries - Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey - and in Britain, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, the Netherlands, Poland, Russia, Spain and the United States. Margins of error ranged from plus or minus two percentage points to plus or minus four. The responses amplified a Pew finding released in June showing that anti-American feelings have been declining in the Islamic world but that favorable feelings outnumber the unfavorable only in Morocco. >From its findings in the Western world, the new report sketched more sharply >some of the fault lines in nations where Muslims and others coexist. In almost every European country with a Muslim minority, a majority of respondents said they viewed Muslim immigrants as slow to accept and take on local values and customs, and they overwhelmingly viewed a growing sense of Islamic identity among Muslims in their countries as "a bad thing." Nearly 9 in 10 Dutch respondents said Muslims in the Netherlands had a strong sense of Islamic identity. And almost 9 in 10 Germans said Muslims in their country wanted to remain distinct from the larger country, while only half of Americans said this about Muslims in the United States. Paul Scheffer, a professor of urban sociology at the University of Amsterdam, said there was no doubt that the distance between Muslims and the rest of Dutch society was growing in the Netherlands. "It's not just a mood," he said. For Muslims, he added, "reaffirming their religious identity is also the result of not feeling at home." Sizable majorities in every non-Muslim country except Poland said they were concerned about Islamic extremism in their own countries, the poll found. Still, in Canada, the United States and Russia, majorities said they had very or somewhat favorable views of Muslims, as they did in France, with the largest Muslim population in Western Europe - about 10 percent of the total population of 60 million. Only in the Netherlands did a bare majority hold unfavorable views, as did nearly half of Germans. Majorities in Germany and the Netherlands said they held negative views of immigration from the Middle East and North Africa. Many respondents in Muslim countries appeared to confirm the perceived separateness of societies, saying they see themselves first as Muslims, then as citizens of their country. In Europe, attitudes on Turkey's bid for European Union membership were shaped strongly by attitudes on immigration. Majorities in France, Germany, and the Netherlands said they opposed EU membership for Turkey, while majorities in Britain, Poland, Spain and Turkey itself were in favor. "You cannot separate the issue of Turkey from domestic politics," said Cem Ozedmir, 39, a leading member of the German Greens party and member of the European Parliament. "There is a very important trend emerging and we see this in the Netherlands. Liberal-minded people who support gay rights and marriage have a feeling that Muslim identity, combined with Turkish accession to the EU, is putting into danger what the EU has achieved in their societies." Johann Aguilar, 23, a newspaper vendor in Paris, said he opposed Turkish membership in the EU, in part because he worried about immigrants. "We have a lot of unemployment," he said, "and at one point it's inevitable to think that they are taking our jobs." In the Muslim world, majorities saw Islam as playing a growing role in national politics. Majorities in most of the Muslim countries - 8 in 10 Moroccans, for example - termed it very important that Islam play a greater role in the world. Polling in most Muslim countries found falling levels of confidence in Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda. But in Jordan, confidence rose from 55 percent two years ago to 60 percent, and in Pakistan, where bin Laden may have sheltered at times while eluding his pursuers, it rose from 45 percent to 51 percent. There was near-universal antipathy in the Muslim countries toward Jews. In Lebanon, a remarkable 99 percent of Muslims and Christians said they held a very unfavorable view of Jews; in Jordan, the figure was 100 percent. Views on Christians were not as absolute, ranging from 21 percent favorable in Turkey to 91 percent favorable in Lebanon, which has a sizable Christian minority. In Asia, views on religious groups were more moderate. In India, with its large Muslim minority, respondents divided nearly evenly on their attitudes to Muslims, with the favorable holding a slight edge; those favorable to Christians outnumbered the unfavorable by 3 to 1; more than half offered no opinion on Jews, but those who did had favorable views by about a 3-to-2 ratio. Additional reporting from Judy Dempsey in Berlin and Marlise Simons and Katrin Bennhold in Paris. Full results of the Pew Global Attitudes Survey are available online at www.pewglobal.org. =============================================================== Reactions from around the world to the Pew findings: http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/14/america/web.voices1.php INDONESIA YUSUF WANANDI, 67 Co-founder of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, Jakarta. AZYUMARDI AZRA, 50 Professor and president of the State Islamic University Syarif Hidayatullah, Jakarta (graduate of Columbia University, 1992). ABIDIN, 35 He is a newspaper salesman SISKA NUGROHO, 25 She is a computer programmer SUKARDI, 55 He is a food stand vendor +++++ QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 45 percent of respondents in Indonesia believe that Islamic extremism presents a great threat to the country. How do you interpret this result? WANANDI It looks like the moderate Muslims in Indonesia are now grasping what extreme Islam is capable of. After the Bali bombings, the Marriott bombing and the Australian embassy bombing, people came to understand that extremism is a threat. If you talk to moderates about extreme groups before Bali, they really weren't worried about them, they thought that extreme groups were just acting up to express themselves, because they were so oppressed during Soharto's time. But after the bombings the people realized what extremism could create. AZRA I think that's not surprising, these radical groups are the most hated groups in Indonesia. A majority of the Muslims are moderate and they don't like violence. This comes from the early period of Islam in Indonesia Indonesia Islam is very peaceful and very moderate, people do not like extremism. ABIDIN I don't think Islamic extremism is a great threat. It is a threat, but local extremists won't go too far because they do care about the people. A lot of people think it's a great threat because there are a lot of bomb scares and bomb threats are overhyped. Many of these bomb scares are connected to corruption cases, and not terrorist acts at all. People are taking advantage of the public's fear. NUGROHO I don't think there's a great threat from Islamic extremists. I am sad about the terrorist attacks but I'm not scared. It's going to get better; these attacks are not a usual part of life. Terrorist attacks are used as distractions they are covering up real issues. SUKARDI Maybe people are scared because there have been more bomb threats here in the last few years. But I don't think there's a great threat. +++++ QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that the vast majority of Indonesians feel that Islam is playing a greater role in political life, and most welcome that development. The reason most often cited for Islam's increasing role in politics is growing immorality in Indonesian society. Please comment on this. WANANDI Religion is playing a greater role in politics because of the globalization process. Globalization has made new values and new cultures that are starting to penetrate Indonesia. The changes are so quick, and so drastic, that of course this creates problems. Many people cannot cope with this change, and in order to create certainty in their life they turn back to values they know, such as religious ones. It's a defense mechanism that is not exclusive to Muslim culture. AZRA The increase in religious conservatism is a global phenomenon, not only in Indonesia. In the U.S. there is rising religious conservatism, or in India. But it's not reflected in politics that much, the parties who won the election are not religious parties. Some Islamic parties joined the secular parties. In 2004, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who was the leader of the Democratic party, was supported by Islamic Justice and Welfare Party. So there's a lot of coalition. There's no significant impact of Islam on political parties. ABIDIN I don't think Islam has a great influence in the political field. NUGROHO Yes, people are starting to turn towards religion because of the growing sense of moral degradation; there seem to be extremists and other bad influences around. People are worried and paying closer attention to Islam. It's not about Western globalization; I'm not worried about that. SUKARDI Yes, a lot of people put religion in politics now, but I'm not sure why. I don't understand because I sell food and I don't care to learn about politics. +++++ QUESTION 3: Fifteen percent of Indonesian respondents now say violence against civilians in defense of Islam is often or sometimes justified, down from 27 percent in 2002. What explains this drop in support for acts of terrorism? WANANDI This is related to the first question. They are now aware that extremist acts affect everyone, including innocent Muslims. No one can condone that. People understand that if these extremist acts can be condoned by society, then the whole society is extreme. AZRA I think that these people realized that Islam alone does not condone any kind of violence. I think it is because some of the victims have also been Muslims, like the attack in London or Sept. 11. Especially the Indonesian bombings, many victims were Muslim. Less and less people can justify violence and terrorist activity. ABIDIN I think people are starting to see the negative impacts of terrorism. People see that terrorism hurts our tourism industry and people will not come here if they are scared. People know we can't fight violence with violence, and Islam does not teach violence. NUGROHO Maybe people did not really understand terrorism at first, but after the bombings, people see the affects. SUKARDI People are less supportive of terrorist attacks because we know what terrorism does, we're afraid of attacks. ++++++++++ PAKISTAN HUSAIN HAQQANI, 48 Professor of international relations at Boston University. He has just published the book ''Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military'' (Carnegie Endowment, 2005) MUDASIR TIPU, 35 He is a government employee in Islamabad SAIMA SHIRAZI, 29 She works as a marketing consultant for state-owned television in Islamabad AYESHA HAMID, 48 A housewife from Rawalpindi +++++ QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 52 percent of respondents in Pakistan believe that Islamic extremism presents a great threat to the country. How do you interpret this result? HAQQANI Pakistani public opinion has generally never been in favor of Islamist extremism. Pakistanis have demonstrated their preference for moderate leaders in general elections whenever they have been given an opportunity to do so... Islamist extremism in Pakistan has flourished in the past under state patronage, with the military-intelligence machinery seeking to control policy with the help of extremists. Now that state patronage for extremists has declined, and state propaganda painting them as freedom fighters has ceased, public opinion is reasserting itself in favor of moderation. TIPU I believe that it is a threat certainly as it presents very real dangers to the stability of the state, which is already extremely vulnerable. My biggest concern is that it is the perpetuation of these acts that should be a matter of serious concern. Despite the fact that a war on terror is going on mercilessly, there is a vicious cycle in which violence is breeding violence. SHIRAZI Extremism poses a danger to the communal sanity of Pakistan. I think we should let democracy rule and let everyone be happy. Where nobody pushes anyone around, no fundamentalists, no fanatics, whether religious or not. HAMID How can our religion be a cause of danger? Islam teaches kindness and love for humanity. Islam is moderation, not extremists. Extremists are not real Muslims. They just give us a bad name. +++++ QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that many Pakistanis feel that Islam is playing a greater role in political life, and most welcome that development. The reason most often cited for Islam's increasing role in politics is dissatisfaction with the current Pakistani government. Please comment on this. HAQQANI When Pakistanis say they want a greater role for Islam they usually mean they want greater morality. There is no evidence that Pakistanis support the perspective of Islamist parties, who managed to get only 11 percent of the popular vote in the 2002 parliamentary elections even though major secular leaders were kept out of the election by General Musharraf and the Islamist alliance had the field to itself... Pakistanis are clearly disenchanted with military rule, and one reason of their stated support for Islam might be that they see the Islamists as opposing Musharraf more openly than the secular opposition... The secular opposition finds itself in a bind. In demanding democracy, it is opposed to Musharraf, but in supporting moderation and opposing religious extremism it shares Musharraf's stated positions. TIPU I hardly see Islam being used as a weapon by the incumbent government; in fact it is quite secular. It shares the views of Kemal Ataturk and a deliberate attempt is being made to change many laws which are conceived to be rooted in Islamic philosophy. SHIRAZI I think the present government is agreeable to the world at large and it is a good thing. Personally, I think religion and politics should be kept separate. HAMID Politicians have indulged in corruption. Islamic parties are comprised of pious people, who follow the word of Allah. It is a good thing. People would believe a person who follows Islam more than a corrupt politician. +++++ QUESTION 3: Twenty-five percent of Pakistani respondents now say violence against civilians in defense of Islam is often or sometimes justified, down from 41 percent in 2004. What explains this drop in support for acts of terrorism? HAQQANI Pakistanis have experienced terrorism first-hand in the last few years and that may have something with the decline in support for terrorism. Also, the state propaganda that eulogized militants fighting in Kashmir as freedom fighters has declined and the brutality of terrorism is now openly discussed in the Pakistani media. All this is clearly influencing Pakistani public opinion. One must remember that public opinion changes. If people see excessive force being used against Muslim civilians in Iraq, Kashmir or Afghanistan, the pendulum may yet swing in the other direction. TIPU Well, I think there are two reasons: a) the West, by the sheer power of its media, its economic resources and its diplomatic clout, has developed an image in which terrorism is being repeatedly denigrated so that is creating a psychological response, which is not lasting, as a matter of fact, and might dissipate; and b) the people realized that terrorism is becoming a part of their daily lives and if it continues to go on, it can lead to greater economic costs. SHIRAZI Violence can never be justified. HAMID The killing of innocent civilians is wrong. Now there is more realization in people that such a thing in the name of Islam is wrong and not acceptable. ++++++++++ LEBANON NIZAR HAMZA, 50 Professor of political science at the American University of Beirut HASSAN, 31 Bank employee (he declined to disclose his surname) SARA BADREDDINE, 27 Primary school teacher +++++ QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 26 percent of respondents in Lebanon believe that Islamic extremism presents a great threat to the country. How do you interpret this result? HAMZA This is a reasonable percentage and a reflection of what goes on in people's minds. HASSAN That's understandable. It's a reasonable number. The Lebanese are known for being sympathetic to ''jihad,'' or resistance not terrorism, there's a difference but with the series of bombings that has been happening in Lebanon, it has become more of a reality for people here. Innocent people are dying. BADREDDINE This result is explained by the fact that the words used are misleading. Extremism in any religion is wrong, but using the word Islam in this case will produce a low result. You have to ask terrorism, or terrorists, not Islamic extremism. Saying that, I believe Islamic extremism is dangerous to the country not because of bombs or terror attacks, but because it prevents the advent of technology and modernism. +++++ QUESTION 2: This percentage is substantially lower than in every other Islamic country surveyed except Jordan. In addition, there is a big divide along religious lines, with 53 percent of Christian respondents but only 4 percent of Muslim respondents seeing Islamic extremism as a great threat to Lebanon. Please comment. HAMZA Naturally, that is also reasonable if you look at Lebanon's demographics. Christians here are more threatened of Islamists being in power and would believe that. But Muslims here, being the majority, don't feel threatened by Islamic extremism and are more sympathetic to Islamic groups. HASSAN Of course Christians here will feel it is more of a threat as they are a minority. Christians have always felt threatened by Muslims in Lebanon. BADREDDINE This is the same. There's a misinterpretation of the terrorism when you use the words Islamic extremism. Islam and terror do not go hand in hand. On the contrary, Islam preaches peace, not terror. If you take out the word Islamic before extremism the results would be completely different. Especially in this region and especially in this country, where: a) the majority of the population is Muslim and b) you have a resistance group (Hezbollah) to whom the people feel loyalty because of its ability to end Israeli occupation. But the Christian/Muslim factor is natural. The Christians did not live the Israeli occupation in the same way the Muslims in south Lebanon did. So Muslims in this country have a certain loyalty to Hezbollah and its role as a resistance group. +++++ QUESTION 3: At the same time, the results show that many Lebanese feel that Islam is playing a greater role in political life these days. The reason most often cited is concern about Western influences in Lebanon. Please comment. HAMZA Again it's a reflection of the current phase in politics with Islamic parties gaining more power. Islamists' role has grown over the years. Hezbollah, Jihad, Hamas (in the Palestinian camps) have come to be more influential. HASSAN Muslims are more in power now. Especially Hezbollah and Amal. And after February 14 [the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri] the Sunnis are also stronger. Christians have to unite with them. BADREDDINE These are very misleading questions. Again it's not Islam which is playing a bigger role in politics. Political parties, which preach Islam, are gaining political power. They use the umbrella of Islam. +++++ QUESTION 4: Thirty-nine percent of Lebanese respondents now say violence against civilians in defense of Islam is often or sometimes justified, down from 73 percent in 2002. What explains this drop in support for acts of terrorism? HAMZA In Lebanon, because of the sectarian makeup of the country, asking one sect would generate a very different answer from asking another sect. E.g. ask Shiites or Sunnis, and you may have an actual rise in percentage, not decrease. Christians may give another answer. The Lebanese, after what happened in Iraq and Gaza, West Bank and even now what is happening in the south with Hezbollah, are more sympathetic to resistance or jihad, and would not term it as violence. Violence does not define what the question really is, as they do not believe this is violence rather than resistance against an occupying or oppressing force. HASSAN There is no such thing as violence against civilians in defense of Islam. The wording is misleading. What is happening in Iraq, the UK, in the U.S., is not violence against civilians in defense of Islam. It is resistance against occupation. This whole question is wrong. BADREDDINE The drop is basically explained because people (including Muslims) are shying away from terrorist attacks. Again, do not equate terrorism with Islamic extremism. ++++++++++ GERMANY HEINZ KRAMER, 60 Research director for European Union foreign policy at the German Institute for International Policy and Security in Berlin. CEM OZEDMIR, 39 A leading member of the German Greens party and member of the European Parliament. Born in Germany of Turkish parents. JULIA HAUSSNER, 42 Piano teacher in Berlin. +++++ QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 66 percent of respondents in Germany believe that there is a growing sense of Islamic identity among Muslims in the country, and that 85 percent of those believe this is a bad thing. How do you interpret this result? KRAMER The results indicate many things. First, that people do take note of media coverage of the issue. On the other hand, people do not really think about their personal experiences with their Muslim neighborhood that is, if they have one. In addition, people in Germany prefer to live in a socially homogenous society. The general decline of Islam's reputation in Europe as one of the acknowledged great religions of the world has also taken place in Germany. There is another factor. The German policy of "integration" of foreigners seems to have failed with respect to Muslims. The process of European integration seems to have created a strong Eurocentric understanding of societal openness there is a clear idea of a culture "fortress Europe" in the minds of these people. OZDEMIR The problem is expectations, not only in Germany but in other countries in Europe. There is the attitude that the more secular you become, the more you are a "good citizen." Its very complicated. If society expects a Muslim not to be a Muslim, but a good citizen, we have a problem. There is a big ambiguity over religious identity. The more secular a society becomes, say like Germany, you wonder how tolerant and understanding it is of religious identity. September 11 changed a lot. Islam was seen as non-modern. If people go to a mosque, they are seen as non-modern. This is a danger. HAUSSNER I see more head scarves. I feel this is not a good thing. A part of the Muslim population keeps more apart than before. I thought it would only be a matter of time before the Turks would integrate. You hear more too about honor killings. They don't have to be like us. It starts to be difficult when everyone has their own laws. There is a sense of drifting apart, as if splitting the society. +++++ QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that an overwhelming majority of Germans feel that Muslims in the country want to be distinct from the larger society, and only 9 percent believe they want to adopt German ways. Please comment. KRAMER This result gives the impression that "social integration" is seen as a task that has predominantly to be fulfilled by the Muslims, not by the German polity. In a certain way, this result is a confirmation of the findings of question 1. OZDEMIR This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You get what you want. It takes generations of immigrants to establish their identity. What is German society expecting? Look at the system of dual nationality which it allows in some cases. It is meaningful to have two or more identities. Society is not very clear on this. The view in Germany is that the less roots have you in your original country, the more you have integrated. HAUSSNER It's difficult. Who are the Muslims? In the economic sphere, they are integrated. I think a recognizable part of the Muslim people want to be distinct. The question is wrong because there are many different kinds of Muslims. My friend has married a Muslim from Syria. She can still wear a short skirt. And her mother-in-law does not wear a head scarf. Yes, a big part of Muslims want to be distinct. This does not mean total separation. +++++ QUESTION 3: Sixty-five percent of German respondents oppose Turkish membership in the EU, and of those about three-quarters also see immigration from the Middle East, North Africa and Eastern Europe as a bad thing. Are attitudes about immigration and national identity affecting Turkey's membership bid? KRAMER They definitely do so. The position of the Christian Democrats but also of a majority of the Liberals and a majority of Social Democratic grass roots towards Turkey's accession process ot the EU is informed by these attitudes. OZDEMIR You cannot separate the issue of Turkey from domestic politics. There is a very important trend emerging and we see this in the Netherlands. The liberal-minded people who support gay rights and marriage have a feeling that Muslim identity combined with Turkish accession to the EU is putting into danger what the EU has achieved in their societies. In other words, the liberals are saying that the sexual/gender issues, the honor killings, the head scarves, these could become the lifestyle if it continues like this. This is a trend taking place. It is a new trend among the liberal middle classes. Also one other trend to think about: Liberals actually send their children to church schools in places in Germany where there are many immigrants. There are fewer immigrants in these schools. You like to live in these neighborhoods but you don't want your children to go to their schools. HAUSSNER As for the immigration issue, it depends who is coming. Many are not qualified. They think there is a better life here. They will be looked after. They have to be fed. The fear is not that many Turks will come to Germany if Turkey joins the EU. It's something else as well. The liberals feel that their liberal values will be undermined; that they will be changed. +++++ QUESTION 4: A Pew survey conducted this spring showed that 78 percent of German respondents were somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism in Germany. In light of the London bombings, do you expect fears of Islamic extremism in Germany to rise? KRAMER This will, most likely, be the case it the short term. They will definitely not go down. OZDEMIR There will be so many different ambiguities. It depends on what takes place in Turkey and how the political parties respond. HAUSSNER I'm not sure if Islamic terrorism is coming from Muslims inside Germany. Its coming from people who study here for a few years and are mobile. Also, there is still a feeling here that it [the terrorist attacks] won't happen here. As for the fear increasing, yes. I guess so. ++++++++++ FRANCE OLIVIER ROY, 55 Senior research fellow at the CNRS, the French National Scientific Research Institute, and author of ''Globalized Islam'' (Columbia University Press, 2004) CHRISTOPHE BERTOSSI, 34 Specialist on immigration at the French Institute of International Relations in Paris. JOHANN AGUILAR, 23 Newspaper vendor in central Paris KATHERINE VERDOT, 44 Has an antique stall at the Clignancourt flea market in Paris +++++ QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 70 percent of respondents in France believe that there is a growing sense of Islamic identity among Muslims in the country, and that 89 percent of those believe this is a bad thing. How do you interpret this result? ROY There is definitely a growing assertiveness of Islamic religious identity in France and in Europe. This is wrongly attributed to a comeback of a ''cultural'' Middle Eastern identity, while in fact it is a consequence of the disconnect between religion and culture. Muslims want to be recognized as ''Muslims,'' not as ''Arabs'' or immigrants. In this sense, the way Islam reasserts itself has more to do with the Christian ''born-agains'' than with a pristine Arabic culture. The sense of threat among French public opinion (which by the way is also directed towards cults like Scientology) comes from the fact that the French political culture is based on the rejection of religion from the public sphere, whatever the religion. Any religious assertiveness is seen as a threat. BERTOSSI The international context with the Iraq war, the fight against terrorism and the second Intifada, along with the recent debates in France, since the winter of 2003, on secularism and the creation of the National Council for the Muslim Religion, have nourished the feeling that Islam was French society's main problem, along with unemployment and clandestine immigration. Moreover, this finding of a growing sense of Islamic identity is often more the fruit of the way so-called Muslim populations are seen -- not all of which, by the way, are practicing Muslims -- than of they way they see themselves. As a result of being categorized according to their adherence to Islam, France's communities of immigrants from North Africa are defined as ethnic populations, i.e. most often as 'inferior' communities. Opinions about this are reinforced by reports in the media, in which Islam is automatically perceived as a challenge, and by political discourse which often fans the flames of prejudice. We thus have a series of themes that are wrongly associated: communitarism, discrimination, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, secularism, the fight against Islamism, and problems of integration. ... This often masks the reality of discrimination experienced by Muslim populations in this context in which Muslim identity, that is assumed to be fixed, is necessarily considered to be a problem. +++++ QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that nearly 60 percent feel that Muslims in France want to be distinct from the larger society, while 36 percent believe they want to adopt French ways. Please comment. ROY Perception is not reality. The intellectual perception about Islam is based on the idea of an alleged Muslim ''separatism,'' the idea that Islam is an obstacle to integration, while the concrete interactions of individual ''French'' people with ''Muslims'' show to many French that most Muslims are willing to integrate. Hence the discrepancy between issues relating to ''Islam'' and issues relating to one's ''Muslim neighbor'' (''my Muslim neighbor is O.K., the others are not''). BERTOSSI This result illustrates two thing, which are linked. First, the majority perception in France that the new problem of integration does not concern immigrants in general, but Muslims in particular, despite the fact that the latter are no longer immigrants but French citizens and, most often, by birth. Second, the parallel percecption that the Muslims of France are unlikely to be French citizens like everyone else precisely because of the Muslim identity, real or imagined. Adherence to Islam becomes a 'color bar' in France. VERDOT Muslims in France are seen as people who want to impose their religion on others. It's true that their search for an identity seems to have become a lot more pronounced, especially in the younger generations. Sometimes it annoys me, too. When I go to Sri Lanka and visit a temple I have to put on a veil. Why don't they adapt to our culture here? +++++ QUESTION 3: Sixty-six percent of French respondents oppose Turkish membership in the EU, and of those about four-fifths also see immigration from the Middle East, North Africa and Eastern Europe as a bad thing. Are attitudes about immigration and national identity affecting Turkey's membership bid? ROY Yes. For good or bad reasons the debate on Turkey epitomizes the debate on Islam and immigration. Although it is probable that after integration into the EU the level of Turkish immigration to Europe will drop: let's remember the fear of an influx of millions of people from the former communist bloc after 1991. BERTOSSI Turkish entry to the EU is crystalizing opinions of people who are finding a visible ''foreigner'' to oppose, with the fear of loss of identity that, moreover, goes beyond the French context and concerns various European countries (U.K., Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Switzerland, etc.). It is in this context that the latest reform of the French Constitution, which took place before the referendum on the European constitutional treaty, stipulates that the next enlargements of the European Union will be put to the French via referendum. This of course is aimed at Turkey. France's no to the European Constitution on May 29 made this point still more sensitive. Even if the two are not directly linked, the French national identity crisis with regard to its Muslim minority, the social and economic crisis dominated by heavy unemployment, the crisis of the French citizenship model versus so-called 'communitarism' (head scarves, forced marriage, etc.), the crisis of European construction with a negative experience of enlargement by 10 (and soon 12) new member states all this contributes to reinforcing the anti-immigrant discourse, strongly based on a whiff of nationalism, from the ''Polish plumber'' to the ''Muslim'' immigrant. The transition to globalization, if it takes effect in reality, is being experienced negatively by people, and the result is that different identities enter into conflict: national identity versus ''others,'' whether immigrants or Turkey in the prospect of EU enlargement. Europe's desire has changed: It is no longer the project of the ''founding fathers'' but a desire for borders closed to immigration, including within an expanded European Union; for security; and for a clear-cut identity. AGUILAR I'm against Turkey in the EU it's a question of culture but it's also a question of democrcy and human rights. They don't know what women's rights are, for example. I'm not against all immigration the Africans really work very hard and I respect that. I worked in a factory before and saw how they worked. But you have to limit it. We have a lot of unemployment and at one point it's inevitable to think that they are taking our jobs. +++++ QUESTION 4: The survey showed that 73 percent of French respondents were somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism in France. In light of the London bombings, do you expect fears of Islamic extremism in France to rise? ROY It would be difficult to have more than 73 percent of French public opinion being afraid of Islam if we take into account the fact that there are between 5 to 8 percent of Muslims in France, plus a number of mixed couples and families, plus leftists and liberals, plus social workers, plus tourists enjoying weeks of leisure in Muslim countries. The threat mentioned by the 73 percent doesn't really relate to Muslims living in France but to an abstract perception of the ''Islamic threat.'' AGUILAR I'm not surprised at all that so many people are worried about rising extremism. We all saw what happened in London. First New York, then Madrid and now London. What if Paris is next? Now when I take the metro I am actually a bit worried. I'm afraid, but I'm also annoyed because some of the Muslims in France are becoming very feisty. Like when they whistled and booed during the Marseillaise during a football match between France and Algeria last year. They're in our country because they don't want to be in their own, but they criticize France and more and more of the young ones are now parading their Muslim identity. VERDOT The French have long feared the opening to other cultures, they are a very racist people. They have no problems with Dutch, German or British immigrants, but a different color and a differnt religion are still real barriers for most people. Such sentiment is bound to increase after the London attacks that's natural perhaps but I find it really sad. ++++++++++ NETHERLANDS PAUL SCHEFFER, 50 Professor of urban sociology, University of Amsterdam. Has published extensively on immigration and integration problems. PETER PAUL SPANJAARD, 26 Lawyer +++++ QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 60 percent of respondents in the Netherlands believe that there is a growing sense of Islamic identity among Muslims in the country, and that 87 percent of those believe this is a bad thing. How do you interpret this result? SCHEFFER This is an observation which I share. Certainly since Sept. 11 there is a growing emphasis among Muslims on faith, also among young people. There is a growing distance between them and the rest of Dutch society. The emphasis on religious symbols is stronger. It's not just a mood. It has been confirmed by independent research among Moslims that there is greater use of religious symbolism. [Re 87 percent believe it's a bad thing]: This points to a growing alienation from Dutch society, that people are feeling rejected, feeling uneasy. The stronger sense of Muslim identity is also brought about by this greater distance from Dutch society. If you put that question to Muslims they will basically say the same: that reaffirming their religious identity is also the result of not feeling at home. Religion perhaps has become the only source of self-respect. It reflects a malaise in Dutch society, that there is not enough capacity to integrate or willingness to integrate. It's also a reflection of the growing sense of distrust. There is a widespread feeling of uneasiness on both sides, among the Dutch and the Muslims. Younger people at the university tell me all the time they never feel quite accepted. SPANJAARD Yes, there is that growing sense of Muslim identity. But we have to blame ourselves because we have singled them out as a different group. But it's worrying if they want to keep their own lifestyle. because it means they dont want to participate in dutch society. It means the gap will become bigger. +++++ QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that nearly two-thirds feel that Muslims in the Netherlands want to be distinct from the larger society, while about a third believe they want to adopt Dutch ways. Please comment. SCHEFFER The most orthodox Muslims tell their fellow believers: Either you are a good Muslim and keep your distance from the Dutch ways, or you integrate and corrupt your faith. There is a large group of Muslims that does not agree with this view. It presents a choice of opposites, either you integrate or remain part of your religion; either you stay aloof or you corrupt your faith. Many Muslims do not want to make this choice. What do the orthodox mean: that people must reject the basic values of an open liberal society, or does it mean that they should visit the mosque regularly, wear the headscarf? So people wonder if it is possible to be a Dutch Muslim. The most orthodox preachers and believers want a cohesive Muslim community which they can control SPANJAARD The important question is what the young people want to do. If the older generation wants to be different, well maybe we can't expect them to change or to adapt. But if the young people want to be different and separate, then we get cultural ghettos. +++++ QUESTION 3: Fifty-three percent of Dutch respondents oppose Turkish membership in the EU, and of those about two-thirds also see immigration from the Middle East, North Africa and Eastern Europe as a bad thing. Are attitudes about immigration and national identity affecting Turkey's membership bid? SCHEFFER Yes, like in France, the rejection of Turkey's bid for membership definitely played a role in the no vote against the constitution. People in Holland have for a long time been concerned about the fast immigration, and their experiences with Muslim immigrants play a role in their view of Turkey's membership. Two-thirds of the Dutch oppose more immigration, because people feel uncontrolled immigration has been too fast and gone too far. Crime rates among Moroccan and to a lesser extent Turkish youths has been high. There has been high segregation in schools. There has been a build-up because until Sept. 11, the mainstream political parties have refused to debate it. Now the antagonism has come out in the open. This a necessary phase of a more open, more realistic debate. People are coming to terms with the fact that Islam is now the second largest religion in the country, that Islam is here to stay. Immigrants had long lived with the illusion of returning. We have now entered a phase of facing reality. SPANJAARD Yes, people link everything together, Islam, terrorism, more immigrants, more crime. But the real issue with having Turkey in the EU is its large size, which means it will have a lot of influence. It could change what Europe is, or wants to be. +++++ QUESTION 4: The survey showed that 76 percent of Dutch respondents were somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism in the Netherlands. In light of the London bombings, do you expect fears of Islamic extremism in the Netherlands to rise? SCHEFFER The worry about Islamic extremism was already high before the London bombings. I wouldn't call it fear but a reflection of reality. People really take into account what the government has repeatedly said, namely that the chance is great that there will be an attack, The secret service says it has already foiled several plots to attack. So it's not a question of if, but when and where. People will not be surprised. There has been New York, Madrid, London the chance is coming closer and closer. SPANJAARD Maybe there's more fear. It's surprising how quickly people stopped talking about it. But yes, there is a sense that it may be our turn. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] *************************************************************************** Berdikusi dg Santun & Elegan, dg Semangat Persahabatan. 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