Greetings, Ok. Could you help me with a technical issue? I signed up for this forum yesterday. I get enough of this dialog from talk radio. Without choosing sides, How do I remove myself?
Thanks, Randy -----Original Message----- From: Robert Calco [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:50 AM To: ProFox Email List Subject: Re: [OT] Do you think McCain is right? Again, Helio, I can't implore you enough to read what I was actually saying. But I am a patient person. Incidentally all I was saying was that liberty is cherished "more deeply" when you fight for it yourself vs. having it ushered in by some mythical Knight in Shining Armor. It was something of a dig at our (American) conception of ourselves and our "world mission"; I think you lost something in the translatiion. The deeper reality I'm hinting at is that man takes too much credit for the blessings he has, and seldom deserves them; to think he really has the power to bestow them on others is an arrogance that afflicts all flavors of humanism---not just the neo-con version, to which I confess that I succumbed. Even with that confession, and the dismal view of human nature it admittedly exposes on my part, I nevertheless cannot see the whole thing in the completely negative light you and others see it in. The conclusion it was a total failure and the people responsible for it need to be carted off in chains shows a lack, not a depth, of perspective about a lot of things, not the least of which being history. If there is to be democracy in Iraq, it's up to the Iraqis to fight for it now that they at least can. Previously they knew only brutal tyrrany, and really didn't have a chance to control their own destiny. Now they have to confront the frightful array of choices (including going back into battered-wife syndrome and seeking the strong-man solution) before them. We can't do that for them, but at least we did give them an opportunity to choose their own destiny. All this nonsense about how we somehow "control" them or were really trying to is negated by all the arguments (by the same people) that the situation is "out of control" having gone to great pains to give them an opportunity to vote for their own government. The fact they chose leaders whom we did not prefer and we nonetheless respected their choice shows that they really did have a free choice, and we weren't there merely to set up a puppet government. On the other hand (and this is my critique) we really didn't give them the best advice in terms of how they could have structured there government to deal up-front with some of the issues perplexing them now. The same thing happened in Russia. Has no one read the Federalist papers? To err is human... :) - Bob On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 05:18PM, "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >"Knight in a shiny armor" (US) coming to rescue Iraqs from oppression... >This is utterly ridiculous. Hard to believe an "adult" believe in such silly >terms. > >Probably Bob Calco believes Francisco Pizarro was just trying to bring >civilization and christianity to savages... LOL > > >On 11/27/06, Bill Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> > Therein was, and is, the appeal of what we've done: To give others >> > that right. Certainly, average Iraqis and Afghanis had no such power >> > before either invasion; now, despite the upheaval, they do. >> >> > You seem all-too-comfortable with the idea that tyranny is OK as long >> as it's >> > somewhere else, and we just mind our own business. >> >> > Don't get me wrong: I strongly share that sentiment on a certain >> > level. Frankly, it's up to people to liberate themselves from >> > whatever shackles they endure, whether they be imposed from without >> > (tyranny) or from within (guilt over sin, self-loathing). The >> > struggle for freedom on every level is more "real" and the results >> > more appreciated when you do it yourself than when a Knight In >> > Shining Armor does all the grunt work for you. > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > [excessive quoting removed by server] _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
