> Thanks for the information that = (self classify) may not be the
> most efficient approach for the machine, but pedagogically there
> may be conceptual advantages to giving the learner a single step
> solution, compared to the i.~ which would require an explanation
> of adverbs as well. Once again I am finding the fastest way to
> learn is to teach (or attempt to teach ;)  )

As far as the beginner is concerned, both = and i.~ are single step.
You don't necessarily have to explain the expression; instead,
you can explain the result:

   x=: 'mississippi'
   = x
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1
0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0
   i.~ x
0 1 2 2 1 2 2 1 8 8 1
   x i. x
0 1 2 2 1 2 2 1 8 8 1

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
m i s s i s s i p p i
0 1 2 2 1 2 2 1 8 8 1

I wasn't not necessarily talking about machine efficiency.
=x takes more room on the screen, and in your brain.



----- Original Message -----
From: bob therriault <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010 10:50
Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] The Ambiguous Dictionary
To: Programming forum <[email protected]>

> Thanks Roger,
> 
> I had been thinking about using + (plus) as well because it can 
> generalize as a template to other arithmetic 0 rank dyadic 
> verbs. Your examples provide a starting point for the concepts. 
> I'll see what I can come up with.
> 
> Thanks for the information that = (self classify) may not be the 
> most efficient approach for the machine, but pedagogically there 
> may be conceptual advantages to giving the learner a single step 
> solution, compared to the i.~ which would require an explanation 
> of adverbs as well. Once again I am finding the fastest way to 
> learn is to teach (or attempt to teach ;)  )
> 
> cheers, bob
>  
> On -Feb2-2010, at -Feb2-20109:47 AM, Roger Hui wrote:
> 
> >> Take a J primitive which is relatively simple but maybe hard 
> for a
> >> beginner to intuit, like monadic "=" (self-classify). Not something
> >> with bells and whistles like ";:". Personally I'd like to see an
> >> animation of self-classify, because coming from APL I'm still not
> >> altogether comfy with it in my own mind.
> > 
> > Use + (plus).  It'd be so "obvious" that the viewer/reader
> > would think "How else would you have it?"
> > 
> >   2 + 3
> > 5
> > 
> >   2 + 3 4 5
> > 5 6 7
> >   20 30 10 + 7
> > 27 37 17
> > 
> >   20 30 10 + 3 4 5
> > 23 34 15
> >   20 30 + 3 4 5
> > |length error
> > |   20 30    +3 4 5
> > 
> >   i. 3 4
> > 0 1  2  3
> > 4 5  6  7
> > 8 9 10 11
> > 
> >   2 + i.3 4
> > 2  3  4  5
> > 6  7  8  9
> > 10 11 12 13
> >   20 40 60 + i.3 4
> > 20 21 22 23
> > 44 45 46 47
> > 68 69 70 71
> >   (i.3 4) + 100 200 19
> > 100 101 102 103
> > 204 205 206 207
> > 27  28  29  30
> >   20 40 60 80 + i.3 4
> > |length error
> > |   20 40 60 80    +i.3 4
> > 
> >   (i.3 4) + (10 + i.3 4)
> > 10 12 14 16
> > 18 20 22 24
> > 26 28 30 32
> > 
> > p.s.  I believe that the current monadic = is not one of
> > the better verbs in J.  The representation is wasteful, 
> being 
> > approximately O(n^2), and if the representation is wasteful 
> > then the implementation is necessarily wasteful.  
> > For self-classification i.~ is much better.  Moreover, 
> the "key" adverb 
> > (not available at the time the monad = was first defined) 
> > has made a self-classification verb much less needed.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ian Clark <[email protected]>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010 8:59
> > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] The Ambiguous Dictionary
> > To: Programming forum <[email protected]>
> > 
> >> URL embedding is something I must leave to others. I'd be starting
> >> from cold as regards Moinmoin. Maybe we should simply fall 
> back on
> >> html? Remind me why we need anything fancier.
> >> 
> >> Voice-over I have strong feelings against. Distracting, ineffective
> >> and culturally dependent. Traditional and reassuring maybe, 
> but only
> >> in your own mother tongue, accent and mannerisms. Nothing 
> going for
> >> it.
> >> 
> >> And I say that as an ex-lecturer (and courseware developer).
> >> 
> >> Use soothing music. It's only wallpaper. And then only in a YouTube
> >> showcase, not in a serious expository text.
> >> 
> >> The same goes for moving text, or "titles" as I think movie makers
> >> call them. Only good for identifying the footage, like a
> >> clapper-board. The effort to read it can distract the viewer 
> >> from the
> >> object you want him/her to attend to. There will always be
> >> accompanying text. I think the purpose of animation in technical
> >> exposition is to convey spatial concepts non-verbally. Therefore
> >> verbiage is nothing but a distraction.
> >> 
> >> I like your use of coloured dots. It conveys succintly that the
> >> content of a given cell doesn't matter: just the interplay between
> >> cells. If you use numbers, or even letters, the viewer wastes
> >> brain-cycles processing these before grasping they are of no
> >> importance. If you need more modal dimensions: shape and 
> size. As
> >> regards shape, chicks and tadpoles may be slightly better 
> than squares
> >> and circles, but one must balance being boring against being
> >> distracting. I'd err on the "boring" side to start with, and 
> >> spice-up
> >> judiciously. People assume animations have got to be Loony 
> >> Toons. But
> >> someone prepared to consider programming in any language, let 
> >> alone J,
> >> needs an attention-span longer than a 5 year old TV watcher.
> >> 
> >> The viewer may have to study the animation for quite some 
> time to
> >> absorb its principle. Eye candy soon gets irritating. See the
> >> "grasshopper escapement" animation, halfway down in
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison -and work out how it
> >> manages to be friction-free. Jiminy Cricket would soon begin 
> to grate.
> >> 
> >> Further to that example, I think continuous animation loops 
> are good.
> >> (Though it's nice to be able to stop 'em!)
> >> 
> >> Take a J primitive which is relatively simple but maybe hard 
> for a
> >> beginner to intuit, like monadic "=" (self-classify). Not something
> >> with bells and whistles like ";:". Personally I'd like to see an
> >> animation of self-classify, because coming from APL I'm still not
> >> altogether comfy with it in my own mind.
> >> 
> >> And remember the better it conveys its message, the more 
> trivial and
> >> "obvious" it looks and the less time the viewer spends 
> looking 
> >> at it.
> >> It's why writers of public notices are always too pompous and 
> prolix:>> they don't want to appear dumb. It's really quite 
> unrewarding 
> >> work, in
> >> a way.
> >> 
> >> Ian
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 5:56 AM, bob therriault 
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Thanks for the review, Ian
> >>> 
> >>> It definitely needs to be sped up and, although music could 
> be 
> >> added, it was going to be finished with a voice over and 
> sound 
> >> effects. I hadn't got around to final version, but when I 
> read 
> >> Oleg's comment about animation, I exported the 'work in 
> >> progress' to YouTube. YouTube does provide a string for 
> >> embedding, but I didn't think it would work within an email.
> >>> 
> >>> I would be happy to work on animations as they were needed 
> for 
> >> specific primitives. My experience says that there is a 
> certain 
> >> level of fundamental understanding that is required before 
> >> animations are really effective, before that they tend 
> towards 
> >> eye-candy (or worse misleading). If you have a primitive in 
> mind 
> >> let me know and we can go through some iterations to see how 
> >> productive we are.
> >>> 
> >>> Cheers, bob
> >>> 
> >>> ps. you can put videos into J labs as well, by using the 
> >> jbrowser file and calling specific URL's hiding it within the 
> >> PREPARE section.
> >>> eg.
> >>> PREPARE
> >>> launch_jbrowser_ 'http://www.apple.com/ca/ipodtouch/what-
> >> is/pocket-computer.html'
> >>> PREPARE
> >>> It has been a while since I have done this and the result is 
> >> that a whole browser window will open, but when refined this 
> may 
> >> have some possibilities. I'm not as sure how this will work 
> with 
> >> the new browser interface. bt
> >>> 
> >>> On -Feb1-2010, at -Feb1-20106:43 PM, Ian Clark wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> I like it, Bob.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The minimalism may arise from it being a first effort, but 
> it shows
> >>>> it's neither necessary nor wise to over-egg the pudding.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Minor crits: could do with being sped up. Needs music. 
> >> YouTube has a
> >>>> library of free soundtracks: you can just attach one for now.
> >>>> 
> >>>> YouTube movies can be easily embedded in your own html 
> file. 
> >> Stefano &
> >>>> I have done it. They generate you an <object> to 
> >> copy/paste. See
> >>>> source of 
> http://www.maxclark.me.uk/undeadtree/interspex.htm 
> >> for an
> >>>> example.
> >>>> 
> >>>> But how to do it with MoinMoin?
> >>>> 
> >>>> So... are you offering to do a 15 second movie for each J 
> >> primitive?>>
> >>>> Ian
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:08 PM, bob therriault 
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Oleg and Ian,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODxv498p4ME
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> This isn't about a specific function, but is an animation 
> i 
> >> put together to explain why it is useful to organize 
> information 
> >> into arrays. I developed it on keynote, but haven't yet put a 
> >> soundtrack to it. It's not really high end, but it wasn't too 
> >> hard to put together either. Let me know if you have more 
> >> specific ideas for animations.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Cheers, bob
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On -Feb1-2010, at -Feb1-201012:50 PM, Oleg Kobchenko wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>>> From: Ian Clark <[email protected]>
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> One winning instructional strategy, including Gilman 
> and Rose,
> >>>>>>>> is telling a story for each piece of material. Such stories,
> >>>>>>>> among other things, may revolve around exo-paradigms.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> When I used to program in FORTH (sign of a mis-spent 
> >> youth) one
> >>>>>>> well-beloved primer in the FORTH community was 
> illustrated with
> >>>>>>> engaging but instructive cartoons. Thus the standard 
> word 
> >> SWOP was a
> >>>>>>> little two-headed dragon that did what you'd guess with 
> >> objects on the
> >>>>>>> stack. Can anyone remember the book and remind me of its 
> title?>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Starting FORTH, by Leo Brodie
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/sf2/sf2.html
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> This is fun stuff all right. And a good read for a vacation.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> What I was thinking for APL/J for a long time was
> >>>>>> an interactive or animated illustrator of the operations,
> >>>>>> especially those that manipulate multidimensional and
> >>>>>> nested structures.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I know someone (http://www.leelamaria.com/) who could do 
> >> us a wodge of
> >>>>>>> cartoons like that. Shall I try to get them interested?
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