This may sound trite, but Who is the audience? Everyone who does math, be it for engineering, finance, or middle-school algebra. Interactive J should be approachable for a 10 year-old and would be a huge improvement over the calculators and spreadsheets in current use.
What do they already know about J? Nothing or less. While I am occasionally surprised by the extent that J is used among very senior financial types, it is a fact that J remains deep in obscurity within the IT industry. I can't imagine that the picture is any clearer among educators. What the want to know is how to do basic math with the console. What they need is enough of a foundation to begin exploring complex relationships. I agree, Khan Academy provides an excellent model. If we (as a community) were ever fortunate enough to have Khan produce some introductory materials, usage would explode. Having said that, shouldn't this thread be migrated to Chat? - michael dykman On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Dan Bron <j...@bron.us> wrote: > Hmm. I could do a basic intro to J course at one of the NYC JUGs. If we > broadcast & record it, we could then post it on youtube. > > The question is: who is the audience? What do they already know about J? > What do they want to know? > > -Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com > [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of William Tanksley, Jr > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:43 AM > To: Programming forum > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Demise of @ and [: debate > > I'd love to see a youtube class on J. I'd download every episode as it > aired to my phone and watch it on the train, using my computer to do > experiments and take notes. That's what I do with "njwilberger" > rational trig and hyperbolic geometry lessons. > > -Wm > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Skip Cave <s...@caveconsulting.com> wrote: >> A methodical approach to teaching J might be to group the primitives into >> groups of similar functionality. Order these groups by complexity (simple >> to complex), as well as perhaps ranking them by familiarity with >> already-learned concepts from traditional math classes, most familiar >> first. >> >> With a learning sequence defined, spend a class on each group of >> primitives, starting with the simplest and most familiar functions (+-*%, >> or perhaps = =. =:), and progress to the most complex and unfamiliar >> functions.You should probably start with direct execution, and introduce >> verb creation after a few classes on basic primitives. Some class time >> should be spent on how to read and understand the vocabulary definitions. >> >> Homework for each class would focus on usage of that current classes' >> primitives, with previously-covered primitives thrown in for good measure. >> The homework problems should be constructed to not require primitives that >> haven't been covered yet (though nothing would prevent an advanced student >> from looking ahead and trying them). >> >> It would be interesting to create an online J class, much like the Khan >> Academy on youtube. In fact, if you really wanted to introduce J to the >> masses, create a math tutorial that follows and supports Khan's math >> tutorials, using J as the tool. This would be similar to Iverson's >> "Concrete Math Companion" which follows 'Concrete Mathematics' (Graham, >> Knuth, and Patashnik (GKP)). >> >> Just a thought.. >> >> Skip >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Linda Alvord > <lindaalv...@verizon.net>wrote: >> >>> I agree, Don. I really was using a post from Roger because I find his the >>> most difficult to untangle. This thread was a good one to explain my new >>> thoughts about @ and [: >>> >>> My challenges are topics I might use to teach high school seniors > studying >>> precalculus, probability and statistics. They are similar to old APL >>> contests I invented while I was teaching APL - to get better with the >>> language myself. However, I'm not sure what would work in classes these >>> days. >>> >>> At least I'm having fun with the readers of the forum. J is even becoming >>> fun to use! >>> >>> Linda >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>> [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Don Guinn >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:04 AM >>> To: Programming forum >>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>> >>> Might want to get beginners a little comfortable with J before showing > them >>> C. and A. >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:56 PM, Linda Alvord <lindaalv...@verizon.net >>> >wrote: >>> >>> > I am rethinking my concern with @ and [: and am leaning toward > using >>> > explicit definitions as a way of teaching J to beginners as a natural >>> > mathematical language. >>> > >>> > Some of the programmers responding to the forum think in idioms and use >>> @ >>> > happily. >>> > >>> > f >>> > <:@-@[ C.&.|. ] >>> > i >>> > -@#@[ |. C. >>> > k >>> > <@i.@-@>:@[ C. ] >>> > >>> > 0thers favor the tacit approach with lots of [: >>> > >>> > g >>> > ] C.&.|.~ [: <: [: - [ >>> > h >>> > [: |. ([: <: [: - [) C. [: |. ] >>> > j >>> > C. |.~ [: - [: # [ >>> > >>> > >>> > Both styles are appropriate and I should not suggest one way or the >>> other. >>> > Many of you have suggested this. >>> > >>> > >>> > We are looking for a simple way to introduce J to beginners. In my >>> > opinion >>> > we would introduce J as a mathematical language for solving problem. >>> > >>> > >>> > I am suggest starting with expressions that produce desired results. >>> > Developing from right to left may come naturally. >>> > >>> > (<:-3 6)C.&.|.'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > The next step is making explicit functions indicating if the intended > use >>> > is >>> > monadic or dyadic. There is no use of @ or [: allowed at this point. >>> > >>> > g=: 13 :'(<:-x)C.&.|.y' >>> > h=: 13 :'|.(<:-x)C.|.y' >>> > j=: 13 :'(-#x)|.x C.y' >>> > >>> > Now exploring the tacit definitions would be appropriate in some >>> > environments and can be explored an studied in terms of forks and > hooks. >>> > At this special code and common idioms can be explored and timing of >>> > expressions can be compared. In the end all roads lead to Rome. >>> > >>> > 3 6 f 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > 3 6 g 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > 3 6 h 'abc*ef*g't >>> > **abcefg >>> > 3 6 i 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > 3 6 j 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>> > [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Linda Alvord >>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:01 PM >>> > To: 'Programming forum' >>> > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>> > >>> > Sorry I missed the version by Arie. Nice! >>> > >>> > 3 6 (i=:-@#@[ |. C.) 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > i >>> > -@#@[ |. C. >>> > >>> > j=: 13 :'(-#x)|.x C.y' >>> > j >>> > C. |.~ [: - [: # [ >>> > >>> > 3 6 j 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > Please let me know if you have concerns or modifications as I plan to > use >>> > different rules beginning with challenge 6. >>> > >>> > Henceforth I'll have no opinion concerning the merits of @ and [: I >>> > hope >>> > to learn to favor them both gracefully. >>> > >>> > Linda >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>> > [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Linda Alvord >>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 5:20 PM >>> > To: 'Programming forum' >>> > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>> > >>> > I'm happiest with the explicit version. It shows the arguments needed > for >>> > the application. >>> > >>> > 3 6 (f=:<:@-@[ C.&.|. ]) 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > 3 6 f a=:'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > g=: 13 :'(<:-x)C.&.|.y'! >>> > 3 6 g a >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > f >>> > <:@-@[ C.&.|. ] >>> > g >>> > ] C.&.|.~ [: <: [: - [ >>> > g=: 13 :'(<:-x)C.&.|.y' >>> > >>> > J provides the ~ which shows up in the tacit version above. >>> > >>> > Then there is h with no ~ and no &. >>> > >>> > h=: 13 :'|.(<:-x)C.|.y' >>> > h >>> > [: |. ([: <: [: - [) C. [: |. ] >>> > 3 6 h a >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > Linda >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>> > [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger Hui >>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:26 AM >>> > To: Programming forum >>> > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>> > >>> > Personally, I dislike expressions with multiple uses of ~ as they make > my >>> > head spin. >>> > >>> > 3 6 (C.&.|.~ <:@-)~ 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > 3 6 (<:@-@[ C.&.|. ]) 'abc*ef*g' >>> > **abcefg >>> > >>> > I much prefer the second over the first. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Aai <agroeneveld...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > > Ah, I see that's a bit like yours David. >>> > > >>> > > Modifying it for 1< #x >>> > > >>> > > 3 6 (C. |.~ -@#@[) 'abc*ef*g' >>> > > **abcefg >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > (from Essays) >>> > > >>> > > 3 6 (C.&.|.~ <:@-)~ 'abc*ef*g' >>> > > **abcefg >>> > >k >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On 01-02-12 16:47, Aai wrote: >>> > > > Sorry for the noise. You should forget the previous ones I sent: > they >>> > > > are wrong. >>> > > > >>> > > > It looks like this one is ok: >>> > > > >>> > > > mtf=:_1&|.@C. >>> > > > >>> > > > ]samples=: '*abcef' |."0 1 ~-i.6 >>> > > > *abcef >>> > > > f*abce >>> > > > ef*abc >>> > > > cef*ab >>> > > > bcef*a >>> > > > abcef* >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > ]res=: '*' ([,-.~) "1 samples >>> > > > *abcef >>> > > > *fabce >>> > > > *efabc >>> > > > *cefab >>> > > > *bcefa >>> > > > *abcef >>> > > > >>> > > > res -: mtf&>/"1 (;~I.@:('*'&=))"1 samples >>> > > > 1 >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > Met vriendelijke groet, >>> > > @@i = Arie Groeneveld >>> > > >>> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> > > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Skip Cave >> Cave Consulting LLC >> Phone: 214-460-4861 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- - michael dykman - mdyk...@gmail.com May the Source be with you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
