A big problem for college freshmen is that calculators tell them 2*3+4 is 10 and J tells them 14. With apologies to "South Pacific": they have been carefully taught PEMDAS.
Sent from my iPad On Feb 3, 2012, at 10:44 AM, Michael Dykman <mdyk...@gmail.com> wrote: > This may sound trite, but > > Who is the audience? Everyone who does math, be it for engineering, > finance, or middle-school algebra. Interactive J should be > approachable for a 10 year-old and would be a huge improvement over > the calculators and spreadsheets in current use. > > What do they already know about J? Nothing or less. While I am > occasionally surprised by the extent that J is used among very senior > financial types, it is a fact that J remains deep in obscurity within > the IT industry. I can't imagine that the picture is any clearer among > educators. > > What the want to know is how to do basic math with the console. What > they need is enough of a foundation to begin exploring complex > relationships. > > I agree, Khan Academy provides an excellent model. If we (as a > community) were ever fortunate enough to have Khan produce some > introductory materials, usage would explode. > > Having said that, shouldn't this thread be migrated to Chat? > > - michael dykman > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Dan Bron <j...@bron.us> wrote: >> Hmm. I could do a basic intro to J course at one of the NYC JUGs. If we >> broadcast & record it, we could then post it on youtube. >> >> The question is: who is the audience? What do they already know about J? >> What do they want to know? >> >> -Dan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >> [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of William Tanksley, Jr >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:43 AM >> To: Programming forum >> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Demise of @ and [: debate >> >> I'd love to see a youtube class on J. I'd download every episode as it >> aired to my phone and watch it on the train, using my computer to do >> experiments and take notes. That's what I do with "njwilberger" >> rational trig and hyperbolic geometry lessons. >> >> -Wm >> >> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Skip Cave <s...@caveconsulting.com> wrote: >>> A methodical approach to teaching J might be to group the primitives into >>> groups of similar functionality. Order these groups by complexity (simple >>> to complex), as well as perhaps ranking them by familiarity with >>> already-learned concepts from traditional math classes, most familiar >>> first. >>> >>> With a learning sequence defined, spend a class on each group of >>> primitives, starting with the simplest and most familiar functions (+-*%, >>> or perhaps = =. =:), and progress to the most complex and unfamiliar >>> functions.You should probably start with direct execution, and introduce >>> verb creation after a few classes on basic primitives. Some class time >>> should be spent on how to read and understand the vocabulary definitions. >>> >>> Homework for each class would focus on usage of that current classes' >>> primitives, with previously-covered primitives thrown in for good measure. >>> The homework problems should be constructed to not require primitives that >>> haven't been covered yet (though nothing would prevent an advanced student >>> from looking ahead and trying them). >>> >>> It would be interesting to create an online J class, much like the Khan >>> Academy on youtube. In fact, if you really wanted to introduce J to the >>> masses, create a math tutorial that follows and supports Khan's math >>> tutorials, using J as the tool. This would be similar to Iverson's >>> "Concrete Math Companion" which follows 'Concrete Mathematics' (Graham, >>> Knuth, and Patashnik (GKP)). >>> >>> Just a thought.. >>> >>> Skip >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Linda Alvord >> <lindaalv...@verizon.net>wrote: >>> >>>> I agree, Don. I really was using a post from Roger because I find his the >>>> most difficult to untangle. This thread was a good one to explain my new >>>> thoughts about @ and [: >>>> >>>> My challenges are topics I might use to teach high school seniors >> studying >>>> precalculus, probability and statistics. They are similar to old APL >>>> contests I invented while I was teaching APL - to get better with the >>>> language myself. However, I'm not sure what would work in classes these >>>> days. >>>> >>>> At least I'm having fun with the readers of the forum. J is even becoming >>>> fun to use! >>>> >>>> Linda >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>>> [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Don Guinn >>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:04 AM >>>> To: Programming forum >>>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>>> >>>> Might want to get beginners a little comfortable with J before showing >> them >>>> C. and A. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:56 PM, Linda Alvord <lindaalv...@verizon.net >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am rethinking my concern with @ and [: and am leaning toward >> using >>>>> explicit definitions as a way of teaching J to beginners as a natural >>>>> mathematical language. >>>>> >>>>> Some of the programmers responding to the forum think in idioms and use >>>> @ >>>>> happily. >>>>> >>>>> f >>>>> <:@-@[ C.&.|. ] >>>>> i >>>>> -@#@[ |. C. >>>>> k >>>>> <@i.@-@>:@[ C. ] >>>>> >>>>> 0thers favor the tacit approach with lots of [: >>>>> >>>>> g >>>>> ] C.&.|.~ [: <: [: - [ >>>>> h >>>>> [: |. ([: <: [: - [) C. [: |. ] >>>>> j >>>>> C. |.~ [: - [: # [ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Both styles are appropriate and I should not suggest one way or the >>>> other. >>>>> Many of you have suggested this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We are looking for a simple way to introduce J to beginners. In my >>>>> opinion >>>>> we would introduce J as a mathematical language for solving problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am suggest starting with expressions that produce desired results. >>>>> Developing from right to left may come naturally. >>>>> >>>>> (<:-3 6)C.&.|.'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> The next step is making explicit functions indicating if the intended >> use >>>>> is >>>>> monadic or dyadic. There is no use of @ or [: allowed at this point. >>>>> >>>>> g=: 13 :'(<:-x)C.&.|.y' >>>>> h=: 13 :'|.(<:-x)C.|.y' >>>>> j=: 13 :'(-#x)|.x C.y' >>>>> >>>>> Now exploring the tacit definitions would be appropriate in some >>>>> environments and can be explored an studied in terms of forks and >> hooks. >>>>> At this special code and common idioms can be explored and timing of >>>>> expressions can be compared. In the end all roads lead to Rome. >>>>> >>>>> 3 6 f 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> 3 6 g 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> 3 6 h 'abc*ef*g't >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> 3 6 i 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> 3 6 j 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>>>> [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Linda Alvord >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:01 PM >>>>> To: 'Programming forum' >>>>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry I missed the version by Arie. Nice! >>>>> >>>>> 3 6 (i=:-@#@[ |. C.) 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> i >>>>> -@#@[ |. C. >>>>> >>>>> j=: 13 :'(-#x)|.x C.y' >>>>> j >>>>> C. |.~ [: - [: # [ >>>>> >>>>> 3 6 j 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know if you have concerns or modifications as I plan to >> use >>>>> different rules beginning with challenge 6. >>>>> >>>>> Henceforth I'll have no opinion concerning the merits of @ and [: I >>>>> hope >>>>> to learn to favor them both gracefully. >>>>> >>>>> Linda >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>>>> [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Linda Alvord >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 5:20 PM >>>>> To: 'Programming forum' >>>>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>>>> >>>>> I'm happiest with the explicit version. It shows the arguments needed >> for >>>>> the application. >>>>> >>>>> 3 6 (f=:<:@-@[ C.&.|. ]) 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> 3 6 f a=:'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> g=: 13 :'(<:-x)C.&.|.y'! >>>>> 3 6 g a >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> f >>>>> <:@-@[ C.&.|. ] >>>>> g >>>>> ] C.&.|.~ [: <: [: - [ >>>>> g=: 13 :'(<:-x)C.&.|.y' >>>>> >>>>> J provides the ~ which shows up in the tacit version above. >>>>> >>>>> Then there is h with no ~ and no &. >>>>> >>>>> h=: 13 :'|.(<:-x)C.|.y' >>>>> h >>>>> [: |. ([: <: [: - [) C. [: |. ] >>>>> 3 6 h a >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> Linda >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: programming-boun...@jsoftware.com >>>>> [mailto:programming-boun...@jsoftware.com] On Behalf Of Roger Hui >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:26 AM >>>>> To: Programming forum >>>>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] Understanding C. , A. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I dislike expressions with multiple uses of ~ as they make >> my >>>>> head spin. >>>>> >>>>> 3 6 (C.&.|.~ <:@-)~ 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> 3 6 (<:@-@[ C.&.|. ]) 'abc*ef*g' >>>>> **abcefg >>>>> >>>>> I much prefer the second over the first. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Aai <agroeneveld...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ah, I see that's a bit like yours David. >>>>>> >>>>>> Modifying it for 1< #x >>>>>> >>>>>> 3 6 (C. |.~ -@#@[) 'abc*ef*g' >>>>>> **abcefg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> (from Essays) >>>>>> >>>>>> 3 6 (C.&.|.~ <:@-)~ 'abc*ef*g' >>>>>> **abcefg >>>>>> k >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 01-02-12 16:47, Aai wrote: >>>>>>> Sorry for the noise. You should forget the previous ones I sent: >> they >>>>>>> are wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It looks like this one is ok: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mtf=:_1&|.@C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ]samples=: '*abcef' |."0 1 ~-i.6 >>>>>>> *abcef >>>>>>> f*abce >>>>>>> ef*abc >>>>>>> cef*ab >>>>>>> bcef*a >>>>>>> abcef* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ]res=: '*' ([,-.~) "1 samples >>>>>>> *abcef >>>>>>> *fabce >>>>>>> *efabc >>>>>>> *cefab >>>>>>> *bcefa >>>>>>> *abcef >>>>>>> >>>>>>> res -: mtf&>/"1 (;~I.@:('*'&=))"1 samples >>>>>>> 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Met vriendelijke groet, >>>>>> @@i = Arie Groeneveld >>>>>> >>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Skip Cave >>> Cave Consulting LLC >>> Phone: 214-460-4861 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > -- > - michael dykman > - mdyk...@gmail.com > > May the Source be with you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
