Reactions from around the world to the Pew findings
International Herald Tribune
FRIDAY, JULY 15, 2005
A new survey commissioned by the Pew Global Attitudes Project revealed a
shift in attitudes around the world regarding Islam, extremism, and Muslim
integration in the West. The IHT invites our readers to share their views on
the points raised in the survey.
INDONESIA
YUSUF WANANDI, 67 Co-founder of the Center for Strategic and International
Studies, Jakarta.
AZYUMARDI AZRA, 50 Professor and president of the State Islamic University
Syarif Hidayatullah, Jakarta (graduate of Columbia University, 1992).
ABIDIN, 35 He is a newspaper salesman
SISKA NUGROHO, 25 She is a computer programmer
SUKARDI, 55 He is a food stand vendor
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QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 45
percent of respondents in Indonesia believe that Islamic extremism presents
a great threat to the country. How do you interpret this result?
WANANDI It looks like the moderate Muslims in Indonesia are now grasping
what extreme Islam is capable of. After the Bali bombings, the Marriott
bombing and the Australian embassy bombing, people came to understand that
extremism is a threat. If you talk to moderates about extreme groups before
Bali, they really weren't worried about them, they thought that extreme
groups were just acting up to express themselves, because they were so
oppressed during Soharto's time. But after the bombings the people realized
what extremism could create.
AZRA I think that's not surprising, these radical groups are the most hated
groups in Indonesia. A majority of the Muslims are moderate and they don't
like violence. This comes from the early period of Islam in Indonesia
Indonesia Islam is very peaceful and very moderate, people do not like
extremism.
ABIDIN I don't think Islamic extremism is a great threat. It is a threat,
but local extremists won't go too far because they do care about the people.
A lot of people think it's a great threat because there are a lot of bomb
scares and bomb threats are overhyped. Many of these bomb scares are
connected to corruption cases, and not terrorist acts at all. People are
taking advantage of the public's fear.
NUGROHO I don't think there's a great threat from Islamic extremists. I am
sad about the terrorist attacks but I'm not scared. It's going to get
better; these attacks are not a usual part of life. Terrorist attacks are
used as distractions they are covering up real issues.
SUKARDI Maybe people are scared because there have been more bomb threats
here in the last few years. But I don't think there's a great threat.
+++++
QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that the vast majority of
Indonesians feel that Islam is playing a greater role in political life, and
most welcome that development. The reason most often cited for Islam's
increasing role in politics is growing immorality in Indonesian society.
Please comment on this.
WANANDI Religion is playing a greater role in politics because of the
globalization process. Globalization has made new values and new cultures
that are starting to penetrate Indonesia. The changes are so quick, and so
drastic, that of course this creates problems. Many people cannot cope with
this change, and in order to create certainty in their life they turn back
to values they know, such as religious ones. It's a defense mechanism that
is not exclusive to Muslim culture.
AZRA The increase in religious conservatism is a global phenomenon, not only
in Indonesia. In the U.S. there is rising religious conservatism, or in
India. But it's not reflected in politics that much, the parties who won the
election are not religious parties. Some Islamic parties joined the secular
parties. In 2004, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who was the leader of the
Democratic party, was supported by Islamic Justice and Welfare Party. So
there's a lot of coalition. There's no significant impact of Islam on
political parties.
ABIDIN I don't think Islam has a great influence in the political field.
NUGROHO Yes, people are starting to turn towards religion because of the
growing sense of moral degradation; there seem to be extremists and other
bad influences around. People are worried and paying closer attention to
Islam. It's not about Western globalization; I'm not worried about that.
SUKARDI Yes, a lot of people put religion in politics now, but I'm not sure
why. I don't understand because I sell food and I don't care to learn about
politics.
+++++
QUESTION 3: Fifteen percent of Indonesian respondents now say violence
against civilians in defense of Islam is often or sometimes justified, down
from 27 percent in 2002. What explains this drop in support for acts of
terrorism?
WANANDI This is related to the first question. They are now aware that
extremist acts affect everyone, including innocent Muslims. No one can
condone that. People understand that if these extremist acts can be condoned
by society, then the whole society is extreme.
AZRA I think that these people realized that Islam alone does not condone
any kind of violence. I think it is because some of the victims have also
been Muslims, like the attack in London or Sept. 11. Especially the
Indonesian bombings, many victims were Muslim. Less and less people can
justify violence and terrorist activity.
ABIDIN I think people are starting to see the negative impacts of terrorism.
People see that terrorism hurts our tourism industry and people will not
come here if they are scared. People know we can't fight violence with
violence, and Islam does not teach violence.
NUGROHO Maybe people did not really understand terrorism at first, but after
the bombings, people see the affects.
SUKARDI People are less supportive of terrorist attacks because we know what
terrorism does, we're afraid of attacks.
++++++++++
PAKISTAN
HUSAIN HAQQANI, 48 Professor of international relations at Boston
University. He has just published the book ''Pakistan: Between Mosque and
Military'' (Carnegie Endowment, 2005)
MUDASIR TIPU, 35 He is a government employee in Islamabad
SAIMA SHIRAZI, 29 She works as a marketing consultant for state-owned
television in Islamabad
AYESHA HAMID, 48 A housewife from Rawalpindi
+++++
QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 52
percent of respondents in Pakistan believe that Islamic extremism presents a
great threat to the country. How do you interpret this result?
HAQQANI Pakistani public opinion has generally never been in favor of
Islamist extremism. Pakistanis have demonstrated their preference for
moderate leaders in general elections whenever they have been given an
opportunity to do so... Islamist extremism in Pakistan has flourished in the
past under state patronage, with the military-intelligence machinery seeking
to control policy with the help of extremists. Now that state patronage for
extremists has declined, and state propaganda painting them as freedom
fighters has ceased, public opinion is reasserting itself in favor of
moderation.
TIPU I believe that it is a threat certainly as it presents very real
dangers to the stability of the state, which is already extremely
vulnerable. My biggest concern is that it is the perpetuation of these acts
that should be a matter of serious concern. Despite the fact that a war on
terror is going on mercilessly, there is a vicious cycle in which violence
is breeding violence.
SHIRAZI Extremism poses a danger to the communal sanity of Pakistan. I think
we should let democracy rule and let everyone be happy. Where nobody pushes
anyone around, no fundamentalists, no fanatics, whether religious or not.
HAMID How can our religion be a cause of danger? Islam teaches kindness and
love for humanity. Islam is moderation, not extremists. Extremists are not
real Muslims. They just give us a bad name.
+++++
QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that many Pakistanis feel
that Islam is playing a greater role in political life, and most welcome
that development. The reason most often cited for Islam's increasing role in
politics is dissatisfaction with the current Pakistani government. Please
comment on this.
HAQQANI When Pakistanis say they want a greater role for Islam they usually
mean they want greater morality. There is no evidence that Pakistanis
support the perspective of Islamist parties, who managed to get only 11
percent of the popular vote in the 2002 parliamentary elections even though
major secular leaders were kept out of the election by General Musharraf and
the Islamist alliance had the field to itself... Pakistanis are clearly
disenchanted with military rule, and one reason of their stated support for
Islam might be that they see the Islamists as opposing Musharraf more openly
than the secular opposition... The secular opposition finds itself in a
bind. In demanding democracy, it is opposed to Musharraf, but in supporting
moderation and opposing religious extremism it shares Musharraf's stated
positions.
TIPU I hardly see Islam being used as a weapon by the incumbent government;
in fact it is quite secular. It shares the views of Kemal Ataturk and a
deliberate attempt is being made to change many laws which are conceived to
be rooted in Islamic philosophy.
SHIRAZI I think the present government is agreeable to the world at large
and it is a good thing. Personally, I think religion and politics should be
kept separate.
HAMID Politicians have indulged in corruption. Islamic parties are comprised
of pious people, who follow the word of Allah. It is a good thing. People
would believe a person who follows Islam more than a corrupt politician.
+++++
QUESTION 3: Twenty-five percent of Pakistani respondents now say violence
against civilians in defense of Islam is often or sometimes justified, down
from 41 percent in 2004. What explains this drop in support for acts of
terrorism?
HAQQANI Pakistanis have experienced terrorism first-hand in the last few
years and that may have something with the decline in support for terrorism.
Also, the state propaganda that eulogized militants fighting in Kashmir as
freedom fighters has declined and the brutality of terrorism is now openly
discussed in the Pakistani media. All this is clearly influencing Pakistani
public opinion. One must remember that public opinion changes. If people see
excessive force being used against Muslim civilians in Iraq, Kashmir or
Afghanistan, the pendulum may yet swing in the other direction.
TIPU Well, I think there are two reasons: a) the West, by the sheer power of
its media, its economic resources and its diplomatic clout, has developed an
image in which terrorism is being repeatedly denigrated so that is creating
a psychological response, which is not lasting, as a matter of fact, and
might dissipate; and b) the people realized that terrorism is becoming a
part of their daily lives and if it continues to go on, it can lead to
greater economic costs.
SHIRAZI Violence can never be justified.
HAMID The killing of innocent civilians is wrong. Now there is more
realization in people that such a thing in the name of Islam is wrong and
not acceptable.
++++++++++
LEBANON
NIZAR HAMZA, 50 Professor of political science at the American University of
Beirut
HASSAN, 31 Bank employee (he declined to disclose his surname)
SARA BADREDDINE, 27 Primary school teacher
+++++
QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 26
percent of respondents in Lebanon believe that Islamic extremism presents a
great threat to the country. How do you interpret this result?
HAMZA This is a reasonable percentage and a reflection of what goes on in
people's minds.
HASSAN That's understandable. It's a reasonable number. The Lebanese are
known for being sympathetic to ''jihad,'' or resistance not terrorism,
there's a difference but with the series of bombings that has been
happening in Lebanon, it has become more of a reality for people here.
Innocent people are dying.
BADREDDINE This result is explained by the fact that the words used are
misleading. Extremism in any religion is wrong, but using the word Islam in
this case will produce a low result. You have to ask terrorism, or
terrorists, not Islamic extremism. Saying that, I believe Islamic extremism
is dangerous to the country not because of bombs or terror attacks, but
because it prevents the advent of technology and modernism.
+++++
QUESTION 2: This percentage is substantially lower than in every other
Islamic country surveyed except Jordan. In addition, there is a big divide
along religious lines, with 53 percent of Christian respondents but only 4
percent of Muslim respondents seeing Islamic extremism as a great threat to
Lebanon. Please comment.
HAMZA Naturally, that is also reasonable if you look at Lebanon's
demographics. Christians here are more threatened of Islamists being in
power and would believe that. But Muslims here, being the majority, don't
feel threatened by Islamic extremism and are more sympathetic to Islamic
groups.
HASSAN Of course Christians here will feel it is more of a threat as they
are a minority. Christians have always felt threatened by Muslims in
Lebanon.
BADREDDINE This is the same. There's a misinterpretation of the terrorism
when you use the words Islamic extremism. Islam and terror do not go hand in
hand. On the contrary, Islam preaches peace, not terror. If you take out the
word Islamic before extremism the results would be completely different.
Especially in this region and especially in this country, where: a) the
majority of the population is Muslim and b) you have a resistance group
(Hezbollah) to whom the people feel loyalty because of its ability to end
Israeli occupation. But the Christian/Muslim factor is natural. The
Christians did not live the Israeli occupation in the same way the Muslims
in south Lebanon did. So Muslims in this country have a certain loyalty to
Hezbollah and its role as a resistance group.
+++++
QUESTION 3: At the same time, the results show that many Lebanese feel that
Islam is playing a greater role in political life these days. The reason
most often cited is concern about Western influences in Lebanon. Please
comment.
HAMZA Again it's a reflection of the current phase in politics with Islamic
parties gaining more power. Islamists' role has grown over the years.
Hezbollah, Jihad, Hamas (in the Palestinian camps) have come to be more
influential.
HASSAN Muslims are more in power now. Especially Hezbollah and Amal. And
after February 14 [the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri]
the Sunnis are also stronger. Christians have to unite with them.
BADREDDINE These are very misleading questions. Again it's not Islam which
is playing a bigger role in politics. Political parties, which preach Islam,
are gaining political power. They use the umbrella of Islam.
+++++
QUESTION 4: Thirty-nine percent of Lebanese respondents now say violence
against civilians in defense of Islam is often or sometimes justified, down
from 73 percent in 2002. What explains this drop in support for acts of
terrorism?
HAMZA In Lebanon, because of the sectarian makeup of the country, asking one
sect would generate a very different answer from asking another sect. E.g.
ask Shiites or Sunnis, and you may have an actual rise in percentage, not
decrease. Christians may give another answer. The Lebanese, after what
happened in Iraq and Gaza, West Bank and even now what is happening in the
south with Hezbollah, are more sympathetic to resistance or jihad, and would
not term it as violence. Violence does not define what the question really
is, as they do not believe this is violence rather than resistance against
an occupying or oppressing force.
HASSAN There is no such thing as violence against civilians in defense of
Islam. The wording is misleading. What is happening in Iraq, the UK, in the
U.S., is not violence against civilians in defense of Islam. It is
resistance against occupation. This whole question is wrong.
BADREDDINE The drop is basically explained because people (including
Muslims) are shying away from terrorist attacks. Again, do not equate
terrorism with Islamic extremism.
++++++++++
GERMANY
HEINZ KRAMER, 60 Research director for European Union foreign policy at the
German Institute for International Policy and Security in Berlin. CEM
OZEDMIR, 39 A leading member of the German Greens party and member of the
European Parliament. Born in Germany of Turkish parents.
JULIA HAUSSNER, 42 Piano teacher in Berlin.
+++++
QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 66
percent of respondents in Germany believe that there is a growing sense of
Islamic identity among Muslims in the country, and that 85 percent of those
believe this is a bad thing. How do you interpret this result?
KRAMER The results indicate many things. First, that people do take note of
media coverage of the issue. On the other hand, people do not really think
about their personal experiences with their Muslim neighborhood that is,
if they have one. In addition, people in Germany prefer to live in a
socially homogenous society. The general decline of Islam's reputation in
Europe as one of the acknowledged great religions of the world has also
taken place in Germany. There is another factor. The German policy of
"integration" of foreigners seems to have failed with respect to Muslims.
The process of European integration seems to have created a strong
Eurocentric understanding of societal openness there is a clear idea of a
culture "fortress Europe" in the minds of these people.
OZDEMIR The problem is expectations, not only in Germany but in other
countries in Europe. There is the attitude that the more secular you become,
the more you are a "good citizen." Its very complicated. If society expects
a Muslim not to be a Muslim, but a good citizen, we have a problem. There is
a big ambiguity over religious identity. The more secular a society becomes,
say like Germany, you wonder how tolerant and understanding it is of
religious identity. September 11 changed a lot. Islam was seen as
non-modern. If people go to a mosque, they are seen as non-modern. This is a
danger.
HAUSSNER I see more head scarves. I feel this is not a good thing. A part of
the Muslim population keeps more apart than before. I thought it would only
be a matter of time before the Turks would integrate. You hear more too
about honor killings. They don't have to be like us. It starts to be
difficult when everyone has their own laws. There is a sense of drifting
apart, as if splitting the society.
+++++
QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that an overwhelming majority
of Germans feel that Muslims in the country want to be distinct from the
larger society, and only 9 percent believe they want to adopt German ways.
Please comment.
KRAMER This result gives the impression that "social integration" is seen as
a task that has predominantly to be fulfilled by the Muslims, not by the
German polity. In a certain way, this result is a confirmation of the
findings of question 1. OZDEMIR This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You get
what you want. It takes generations of immigrants to establish their
identity. What is German society expecting? Look at the system of dual
nationality which it allows in some cases. It is meaningful to have two or
more identities. Society is not very clear on this. The view in Germany is
that the less roots have you in your original country, the more you have
integrated.
HAUSSNER It's difficult. Who are the Muslims? In the economic sphere, they
are integrated. I think a recognizable part of the Muslim people want to be
distinct. The question is wrong because there are many different kinds of
Muslims. My friend has married a Muslim from Syria. She can still wear a
short skirt. And her mother-in-law does not wear a head scarf. Yes, a big
part of Muslims want to be distinct. This does not mean total separation.
+++++
QUESTION 3: Sixty-five percent of German respondents oppose Turkish
membership in the EU, and of those about three-quarters also see immigration
from the Middle East, North Africa and Eastern Europe as a bad thing. Are
attitudes about immigration and national identity affecting Turkey's
membership bid? KRAMER They definitely do so. The position of the Christian
Democrats but also of a majority of the Liberals and a majority of Social
Democratic grass roots towards Turkey's accession process ot the EU is
informed by these attitudes.
OZDEMIR You cannot separate the issue of Turkey from domestic politics.
There is a very important trend emerging and we see this in the Netherlands.
The liberal-minded people who support gay rights and marriage have a feeling
that Muslim identity combined with Turkish accession to the EU is putting
into danger what the EU has achieved in their societies. In other words, the
liberals are saying that the sexual/gender issues, the honor killings, the
head scarves, these could become the lifestyle if it continues like this.
This is a trend taking place. It is a new trend among the liberal middle
classes. Also one other trend to think about: Liberals actually send their
children to church schools in places in Germany where there are many
immigrants. There are fewer immigrants in these schools. You like to live in
these neighborhoods but you don't want your children to go to their schools.
HAUSSNER As for the immigration issue, it depends who is coming. Many are
not qualified. They think there is a better life here. They will be looked
after. They have to be fed. The fear is not that many Turks will come to
Germany if Turkey joins the EU. It's something else as well. The liberals
feel that their liberal values will be undermined; that they will be
changed.
+++++
QUESTION 4: A Pew survey conducted this spring showed that 78 percent of
German respondents were somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism
in Germany. In light of the London bombings, do you expect fears of Islamic
extremism in Germany to rise?
KRAMER This will, most likely, be the case it the short term. They will
definitely not go down. OZDEMIR There will be so many different ambiguities.
It depends on what takes place in Turkey and how the political parties
respond.
HAUSSNER I'm not sure if Islamic terrorism is coming from Muslims inside
Germany. Its coming from people who study here for a few years and are
mobile. Also, there is still a feeling here that it [the terrorist attacks]
won't happen here. As for the fear increasing, yes. I guess so.
++++++++++
FRANCE
OLIVIER ROY, 55 Senior research fellow at the CNRS, the French National
Scientific Research Institute, and author of ''Globalized Islam'' (Columbia
University Press, 2004)
CHRISTOPHE BERTOSSI, 34 Specialist on immigration at the French Institute of
International Relations in Paris.
JOHANN AGUILAR, 23 Newspaper vendor in central Paris KATHERINE VERDOT, 44
Has an antique stall at the Clignancourt flea market in Paris
+++++
QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 70
percent of respondents in France believe that there is a growing sense of
Islamic identity among Muslims in the country, and that 89 percent of those
believe this is a bad thing. How do you interpret this result?
ROY There is definitely a growing assertiveness of Islamic religious
identity in France and in Europe. This is wrongly attributed to a comeback
of a ''cultural'' Middle Eastern identity, while in fact it is a consequence
of the disconnect between religion and culture. Muslims want to be
recognized as ''Muslims,'' not as ''Arabs'' or immigrants. In this sense,
the way Islam reasserts itself has more to do with the Christian
''born-agains'' than with a pristine Arabic culture. The sense of threat
among French public opinion (which by the way is also directed towards cults
like Scientology) comes from the fact that the French political culture is
based on the rejection of religion from the public sphere, whatever the
religion. Any religious assertiveness is seen as a threat.
BERTOSSI The international context with the Iraq war, the fight against
terrorism and the second Intifada, along with the recent debates in France,
since the winter of 2003, on secularism and the creation of the National
Council for the Muslim Religion, have nourished the feeling that Islam was
French society's main problem, along with unemployment and clandestine
immigration. Moreover, this finding of a growing sense of Islamic identity
is often more the fruit of the way so-called Muslim populations are seen --
not all of which, by the way, are practicing Muslims -- than of they way
they see themselves. As a result of being categorized according to their
adherence to Islam, France's communities of immigrants from North Africa are
defined as ethnic populations, i.e. most often as 'inferior' communities.
Opinions about this are reinforced by reports in the media, in which Islam
is automatically perceived as a challenge, and by political discourse which
often fans the flames of prejudice. We thus have a series of themes that are
wrongly associated: communitarism, discrimination, Islamophobia,
anti-Semitism, secularism, the fight against Islamism, and problems of
integration. ... This often masks the reality of discrimination experienced
by Muslim populations in this context in which Muslim identity, that is
assumed to be fixed, is necessarily considered to be a problem.
+++++
QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that nearly 60 percent feel
that Muslims in France want to be distinct from the larger society, while 36
percent believe they want to adopt French ways. Please comment.
ROY Perception is not reality. The intellectual perception about Islam is
based on the idea of an alleged Muslim ''separatism,'' the idea that Islam
is an obstacle to integration, while the concrete interactions of individual
''French'' people with ''Muslims'' show to many French that most Muslims are
willing to integrate. Hence the discrepancy between issues relating to
''Islam'' and issues relating to one's ''Muslim neighbor'' (''my Muslim
neighbor is O.K., the others are not'').
BERTOSSI This result illustrates two thing, which are linked. First, the
majority perception in France that the new problem of integration does not
concern immigrants in general, but Muslims in particular, despite the fact
that the latter are no longer immigrants but French citizens and, most
often, by birth. Second, the parallel percecption that the Muslims of France
are unlikely to be French citizens like everyone else precisely because of
the Muslim identity, real or imagined. Adherence to Islam becomes a 'color
bar' in France.
VERDOT Muslims in France are seen as people who want to impose their
religion on others. It's true that their search for an identity seems to
have become a lot more pronounced, especially in the younger generations.
Sometimes it annoys me, too. When I go to Sri Lanka and visit a temple I
have to put on a veil. Why don't they adapt to our culture here?
+++++
QUESTION 3: Sixty-six percent of French respondents oppose Turkish
membership in the EU, and of those about four-fifths also see immigration
from the Middle East, North Africa and Eastern Europe as a bad thing. Are
attitudes about immigration and national identity affecting Turkey's
membership bid?
ROY Yes. For good or bad reasons the debate on Turkey epitomizes the debate
on Islam and immigration. Although it is probable that after integration
into the EU the level of Turkish immigration to Europe will drop: let's
remember the fear of an influx of millions of people from the former
communist bloc after 1991.
BERTOSSI Turkish entry to the EU is crystalizing opinions of people who are
finding a visible ''foreigner'' to oppose, with the fear of loss of identity
that, moreover, goes beyond the French context and concerns various European
countries (U.K., Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Switzerland, etc.). It is in
this context that the latest reform of the French Constitution, which took
place before the referendum on the European constitutional treaty,
stipulates that the next enlargements of the European Union will be put to
the French via referendum. This of course is aimed at Turkey. France's no to
the European Constitution on May 29 made this point still more sensitive.
Even if the two are not directly linked, the French national identity crisis
with regard to its Muslim minority, the social and economic crisis dominated
by heavy unemployment, the crisis of the French citizenship model versus
so-called 'communitarism' (head scarves, forced marriage, etc.), the crisis
of European construction with a negative experience of enlargement by 10
(and soon 12) new member states all this contributes to reinforcing the
anti-immigrant discourse, strongly based on a whiff of nationalism, from the
''Polish plumber'' to the ''Muslim'' immigrant. The transition to
globalization, if it takes effect in reality, is being experienced
negatively by people, and the result is that different identities enter into
conflict: national identity versus ''others,'' whether immigrants or Turkey
in the prospect of EU enlargement. Europe's desire has changed: It is no
longer the project of the ''founding fathers'' but a desire for borders
closed to immigration, including within an expanded European Union; for
security; and for a clear-cut identity.
AGUILAR I'm against Turkey in the EU it's a question of culture but it's
also a question of democrcy and human rights. They don't know what women's
rights are, for example. I'm not against all immigration the Africans
really work very hard and I respect that. I worked in a factory before and
saw how they worked. But you have to limit it. We have a lot of unemployment
and at one point it's inevitable to think that they are taking our jobs.
+++++
QUESTION 4: The survey showed that 73 percent of French respondents were
somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism in France. In light of
the London bombings, do you expect fears of Islamic extremism in France to
rise?
ROY It would be difficult to have more than 73 percent of French public
opinion being afraid of Islam if we take into account the fact that there
are between 5 to 8 percent of Muslims in France, plus a number of mixed
couples and families, plus leftists and liberals, plus social workers, plus
tourists enjoying weeks of leisure in Muslim countries. The threat mentioned
by the 73 percent doesn't really relate to Muslims living in France but to
an abstract perception of the ''Islamic threat.''
AGUILAR I'm not surprised at all that so many people are worried about
rising extremism. We all saw what happened in London. First New York, then
Madrid and now London. What if Paris is next? Now when I take the metro I am
actually a bit worried. I'm afraid, but I'm also annoyed because some of the
Muslims in France are becoming very feisty. Like when they whistled and
booed during the Marseillaise during a football match between France and
Algeria last year. They're in our country because they don't want to be in
their own, but they criticize France and more and more of the young ones are
now parading their Muslim identity.
VERDOT The French have long feared the opening to other cultures, they are a
very racist people. They have no problems with Dutch, German or British
immigrants, but a different color and a differnt religion are still real
barriers for most people. Such sentiment is bound to increase after the
London attacks that's natural perhaps but I find it really sad.
++++++++++
NETHERLANDS
PAUL SCHEFFER, 50 Professor of urban sociology, University of Amsterdam. Has
published extensively on immigration and integration problems.
PETER PAUL SPANJAARD, 26 Lawyer
+++++
QUESTION 1: The results of a Pew survey conducted this spring show that 60
percent of respondents in the Netherlands believe that there is a growing
sense of Islamic identity among Muslims in the country, and that 87 percent
of those believe this is a bad thing. How do you interpret this result?
SCHEFFER This is an observation which I share. Certainly since Sept. 11
there is a growing emphasis among Muslims on faith, also among young people.
There is a growing distance between them and the rest of Dutch society. The
emphasis on religious symbols is stronger. It's not just a mood. It has been
confirmed by independent research among Moslims that there is greater use of
religious symbolism. [Re 87 percent believe it's a bad thing]: This points
to a growing alienation from Dutch society, that people are feeling
rejected, feeling uneasy. The stronger sense of Muslim identity is also
brought about by this greater distance from Dutch society. If you put that
question to Muslims they will basically say the same: that reaffirming their
religious identity is also the result of not feeling at home. Religion
perhaps has become the only source of self-respect. It reflects a malaise in
Dutch society, that there is not enough capacity to integrate or willingness
to integrate. It's also a reflection of the growing sense of distrust. There
is a widespread feeling of uneasiness on both sides, among the Dutch and the
Muslims. Younger people at the university tell me all the time they never
feel quite accepted.
SPANJAARD Yes, there is that growing sense of Muslim identity. But we have
to blame ourselves because we have singled them out as a different group.
But it's worrying if they want to keep their own lifestyle. because it means
they dont want to participate in dutch society. It means the gap will become
bigger.
+++++
QUESTION 2: At the same time, the results show that nearly two-thirds feel
that Muslims in the Netherlands want to be distinct from the larger society,
while about a third believe they want to adopt Dutch ways. Please comment.
SCHEFFER The most orthodox Muslims tell their fellow believers: Either you
are a good Muslim and keep your distance from the Dutch ways, or you
integrate and corrupt your faith. There is a large group of Muslims that
does not agree with this view. It presents a choice of opposites, either you
integrate or remain part of your religion; either you stay aloof or you
corrupt your faith. Many Muslims do not want to make this choice. What do
the orthodox mean: that people must reject the basic values of an open
liberal society, or does it mean that they should visit the mosque
regularly, wear the headscarf? So people wonder if it is possible to be a
Dutch Muslim. The most orthodox preachers and believers want a cohesive
Muslim community which they can control
SPANJAARD The important question is what the young people want to do. If the
older generation wants to be different, well maybe we can't expect them to
change or to adapt. But if the young people want to be different and
separate, then we get cultural ghettos.
+++++
QUESTION 3: Fifty-three percent of Dutch respondents oppose Turkish
membership in the EU, and of those about two-thirds also see immigration
from the Middle East, North Africa and Eastern Europe as a bad thing. Are
attitudes about immigration and national identity affecting Turkey's
membership bid?
SCHEFFER Yes, like in France, the rejection of Turkey's bid for membership
definitely played a role in the no vote against the constitution. People in
Holland have for a long time been concerned about the fast immigration, and
their experiences with Muslim immigrants play a role in their view of
Turkey's membership. Two-thirds of the Dutch oppose more immigration,
because people feel uncontrolled immigration has been too fast and gone too
far. Crime rates among Moroccan and to a lesser extent Turkish youths has
been high. There has been high segregation in schools. There has been a
build-up because until Sept. 11, the mainstream political parties have
refused to debate it. Now the antagonism has come out in the open. This a
necessary phase of a more open, more realistic debate. People are coming to
terms with the fact that Islam is now the second largest religion in the
country, that Islam is here to stay. Immigrants had long lived with the
illusion of returning. We have now entered a phase of facing reality.
SPANJAARD Yes, people link everything together, Islam, terrorism, more
immigrants, more crime. But the real issue with having Turkey in the EU is
its large size, which means it will have a lot of influence. It could change
what Europe is, or wants to be.
+++++
QUESTION 4: The survey showed that 76 percent of Dutch respondents were
somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism in the Netherlands. In
light of the London bombings, do you expect fears of Islamic extremism in
the Netherlands to rise?
SCHEFFER The worry about Islamic extremism was already high before the
London bombings. I wouldn't call it fear but a reflection of reality. People
really take into account what the government has repeatedly said, namely
that the chance is great that there will be an attack, The secret service
says it has already foiled several plots to attack. So it's not a question
of if, but when and where. People will not be surprised. There has been New
York, Madrid, London the chance is coming closer and closer.
SPANJAARD Maybe there's more fear. It's surprising how quickly people
stopped talking about it. But yes, there is a sense that it may be our turn.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/14/america/web.voices1.php
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