Speaking as former chair, I would like to offer my observations on this:
1. I think everyone was unaware and surprised to see that a vote was counted from Microsoft since it did not appear on the public list 2. Kirk, being cc’d on the message, would have no idea that the message didn’t make the public list. He saw the public list in the address field 3. Gordon, as the sender of the message, would also be unaware that he did not have posting privs to the public list (unless the listserv notified him afterwards-Wayne-does our list serv do this?) 4. Kirk counted the vote, unaware that the message never made it to the list but seeing it addressed to the list, assumed it did. 5. I assume Gordon voted because Jody was away and unable to vote. (Suggestion for MSFT-Good idea to have a backup with posting privs ;-)) 6. In my opinion, Microsoft did nothing wrong and was following our bylaws in placing their vote in good faith 7. Would it have made a difference if they did not cc Kirk, not get their vote counted and then come out with a note saying, “Hey I voted, Here’s the email”? Maybe. Someone could claim that it was a fake email and there might be a whole other set of circumstances we’d have to deal with. But since Kirk was cc’d (and presumably the chair is not complicit with Microsoft) then it’s reasonable to say the vote is valid. 8. The bylaws state that “votes not submitted to the public list will not be counted”. However, this vote was submitted to the public list. But the public list rejected the email. The bylaws are silent in this case. 9. I believe the case Ryan referenced where an IPR exclusion notice was sent to the chair was a different circumstance. If memory serves, in that situation, the IPR policy specified that the sender only deliver to the Chair, not the public list. 10. Straw opinion polls, while interesting, can’t be used to determine the outcome Dean From: Public [mailto:public-boun...@cabforum.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rowley via Public Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 11:59 PM To: CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org>; Kirk Hall <kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com> Cc: Jeremy Rowley <jeremy.row...@digicert.com> Subject: Re: [cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: ]RE: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the VOTING period (ends April 16) Is there an easy way to tell who in our organization has read or write access to the mailing list? If not, and Jody is the primary contributor, how would Gordan have known that he couldn’t place the vote? I don’t think the fact Microsoft is a member is telling considering that I’m not sure which employees have read or write access, despite the fact we have far fewer employees. From: Public [mailto:public-boun...@cabforum.org] On Behalf Of Eric Mill via Public Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 8:17 PM To: Kirk Hall <kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com<mailto:kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com>> Cc: Eric Mill <e...@konklone.com<mailto:e...@konklone.com>>; CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> Subject: Re: [cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: ]RE: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the VOTING period (ends April 16) On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Kirk Hall <kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com<mailto:kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com>> wrote: Eric, look again at the rule: *** All voting will take place via the Public Mail List. Votes not submitted to the Public Mail List will not be considered valid, and will not be counted for any purpose. In this case, Microsoft’s vote did take place “via the Public Mail List”. It’s vote was submitted “to the Public Mail List”. While maybe you could say it was "submitted to" the list (though I think that is questionable), it didn't take place "via" it. It took place via Kirk's inbox, which eventually then made it to the public list. To be hyper technical, the Bylaw does not say the vote must APPEAR on the list during the voting period (just that the vote must occur), and any number of things can prevent a message to the Public list from being forwarded – I have had my messages trapped or even disappear before. If the mailing list software was screwing up, that'd be a bit different. However, this was straightforward user error on a significant vote by a long-time member. I think it’s unfortunate that we are parsing the Bylaws so closely as this – this has always been an informal organization, and getting hung up on interpretations is a waste of time. I understand and agree that it's unfortunate. I am just sharing my personal opinion as a non-voting member, but I think given all the effort that was just put into ensuring that the Bylaws describe a defensible and precise voting process, and given the clear plain language intent of the Bylaws, it's worth being a stickler and enforcing member discipline on something as fundamental as publicly attributable voting. -- Eric From: Eric Mill [mailto:e...@konklone.com<mailto:e...@konklone.com>] Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:17 PM To: CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> Cc: Kirk Hall <kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com<mailto:kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com>> Subject: [EXTERNAL]Re: [cabfpub] ]RE: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the VOTING period (ends April 16) I don't think Microsoft cast its vote correctly. Microsoft is aware of how the CA/Browser Forum list works, and should have been able to cast a vote from a subscribed member address before the deadline. I think this obligation is especially apparent when their vote is likely to be a tiebreaker. Peter's right that there's some greyness to the Bylaws, but I think a plain reading of the text, and its clear intent to have votes be cast where it is publicly attributable to the voter, supports this vote not being validly cast. I'm sure it was a good faith error, but it would not be a good precedent for votes to be counted which were only distributed to and reforwarded by the Chair (or any other member). Unfortunately, since 1 browser vote is the difference between success and failure, this probably points to needing a revote. -- Eric On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Kirk Hall via Public <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> wrote: Ryan, it’s kind of unseemly for one browser to try to block the vote of another browser. Google were the only Forum member to vote no on this ballot – 20 CAs and 2 browsers voted yes. Clearly the consensus of the members is in favor of this ballot, and technically Microsoft cast its vote correctly, even if it was not forwarded by our server. I would suggest you reconsider following this line. From: Public [mailto:public-boun...@cabforum.org<mailto:public-boun...@cabforum.org>] On Behalf Of Ryan Sleevi via Public Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2017 6:03 PM To: CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> Cc: Ryan Sleevi <sle...@google.com<mailto:sle...@google.com>> Subject: [EXTERNAL]Re: [cabfpub] ]RE: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the VOTING period (ends April 16) To that end, this was a concern raised nearly a year ago when discussing what would become Ballot 174, with respect to Section 9.16.3 https://cabforum.org/pipermail/public/2016-April/007468.html<https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/hc0FBErO__wxxZQe-Dc2PEZ05GVvXDwr8hlT7YqeTNI=?d=TiDl1AKJt8Wf2jv4sHYv9voZ0WT72fB3UNhXfspVL1bwhOltPlXyEZUzNcKDDRylxmIZ1STfRCNMque7hAqy8O5CyETYjT7pckT1XkHOuoiTw9ag2YvyUuFuId0cuOCWDb8kaxnWlG91XC_ErQYhMRVfEiXs6-b1rBeRrjClBwkjucIpgjJ2PzVDQNW-haYrs9WNU6PUTHIQpJ9ujFFl-8v4Wnc0XbdKvIIsdoxudVbQONNRCAEc8snLTcBLjKbwA56Irhz4RG_HvGH4XQVLd8HdPoMP5eZ1nsVbSPGsEtghpYbH_ljPHoUhrFsZ5wVxzv8IqsmLYk9gvVg0ExQzbYb5DHRUrNKJWVLDBU1SRAcOhnQ036GGsASxkmRtXYncKKop7r-PtWgWzwqVWPWUnvD31lv9aUUGZXwuJVxDaG7zkKojRHaiEA9rxdas0sFJ15yZkuOU47NH-CCqrzmzmiDUcr35Lft0d-c%3D&u=https%3A%2F%2Fcabforum.org%2Fpipermail%2Fpublic%2F2016-April%2F007468.html> and https://cabforum.org/pipermail/public/2016-April/007480.html<https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/fX2Qab-KnEh8gs8s-IB1vp5ZYlpx7pLOG_71x3y3yvk=?d=TiDl1AKJt8Wf2jv4sHYv9voZ0WT72fB3UNhXfspVL1bwhOltPlXyEZUzNcKDDRylxmIZ1STfRCNMque7hAqy8O5CyETYjT7pckT1XkHOuoiTw9ag2YvyUuFuId0cuOCWDb8kaxnWlG91XC_ErQYhMRVfEiXs6-b1rBeRrjClBwkjucIpgjJ2PzVDQNW-haYrs9WNU6PUTHIQpJ9ujFFl-8v4Wnc0XbdKvIIsdoxudVbQONNRCAEc8snLTcBLjKbwA56Irhz4RG_HvGH4XQVLd8HdPoMP5eZ1nsVbSPGsEtghpYbH_ljPHoUhrFsZ5wVxzv8IqsmLYk9gvVg0ExQzbYb5DHRUrNKJWVLDBU1SRAcOhnQ036GGsASxkmRtXYncKKop7r-PtWgWzwqVWPWUnvD31lv9aUUGZXwuJVxDaG7zkKojRHaiEA9rxdas0sFJ15yZkuOU47NH-CCqrzmzmiDUcr35Lft0d-c%3D&u=https%3A%2F%2Fcabforum.org%2Fpipermail%2Fpublic%2F2016-April%2F007480.html> There is certainly precedent within the Forum that "posted" shall mean available for access via the archives, as that can be objectively measured and quantified. I do not believe we can reasonably argue that "posted" shall mean sent to this address. It cannot be shown, for example, that Microsoft did not block the posting on their end, thereby preventing proper disclosure by preventing egress from their network. This is also not the first time in which the Chair has been the only recipient of a message, and which the interpretation has resulted in some concern. I will note Symantec's previous exclusions, posted only to Dean (in his role as the previous chair), created uncertainty and ambiguity with respect to whether they abided by the Bylaws. I would encourage you, for the avoidance of doubt and conflict, to reconsider your position, as I do not believe it is supported by the precedent, intent, or bylaws of the Forum. On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:57 PM, Peter Bowen via Public <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> wrote: Kirk, I suspect that the mailing list system rejected this email as Gordon is not subscribed to the public mailing list. The bylaws say: "Votes not submitted to the Public Mail List will not be considered valid, and will not be counted for any purpose.” The bylaws do not appear to contemplate what happens if the vote is _submitted_ to the mailing list but not accepted. In this case it was copied to the chair, so you alone saw it. If Gordon had not explicitly copied you, then it would not have been counted. As you were explicitly copied, you received it. Given that the bylaws say "All voting will take place via the Public Mail List”, and the mailing list archives allow verification of whether the email was posted, I am leaning towards the view that this is not a valid vote. However I can see how it is a grey area. Thanks, Peter On Apr 16, 2017, at 5:36 PM, Kirk Hall via Public <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> wrote: This is the vote from Microsoft. From: Gordon Bock [mailto:gb...@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:46 AM To: Kirk Hall <kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com<mailto:kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com>>; CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> Subject: RE: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the VOTING period (ends April 16) Microsoft votes ‘Yes’. Thanks, -Gordon From: Kirk Hall [mailto:kirk.h...@entrustdatacard.com] Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:30 PM To: CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org<mailto:public@cabforum.org>> Subject: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the VOTING period (ends April 16) Reminder: Ballot 194 - Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions is in the voting period (ends April 16) Ballot 194 – Effective Date of Ballot 193 Provisions Purpose of Ballot: Recent Ballot 193 reduced the maximum period for certificates and for reuse of vetting data for DV and OV certificates from 39 months to 825 days. The effective date for reducing the maximum validity period of certificates was specified as March 1, 2018, but no effective date was specified for when the reduction of the maximum period for reuse of vetting data becomes effective. It was the intention of the authors of Ballot 193 that the effective date for reducing the maximum period for reuse of vetting data under BR 4.2.1 would also be March 1, 2018. This ballot is intended to clarify that intention. The ballot also makes these changes retroactive to the effective date of Ballot 193 so there is no gap period. Ballot 193 is in the Review Period (which will end on April 22, 2017), and has not yet taken effect. Bylaw 2.3 states that Ballots should include a “redline or comparison showing the set of changes from the Final Guideline section(s) intended to become a Final Maintenance Guideline” and that “[s]uch redline or comparison shall be made against the Final Guideline section(s) as they exist at the time a ballot is proposed”. To avoid confusion, this Ballot will show the proposed changes to BR 4.2.1 will be presented two ways: (1) a comparison of the changes to BR 4.2.1 as it existed before Ballot 193 (which is as BR 4.2.1 exists at this time this ballot is proposed), and also (2) a comparison of the changes to BR 4.2.1 as it will exist after the Review Period for Ballot 193 is completed (assuming no Exclusion Notices are filed). The following motion has been proposed by Chris Bailey of Entrust Datacard and endorsed by Ben Wilson of DigiCert, and Wayne Thayer of GoDaddy to introduce new Final Maintenance Guidelines for the "Baseline Requirements Certificate Policy for the Issuance and Management of Publicly-Trusted Certificates" (Baseline Requirements) and the "Guidelines for the Issuance and Management of Extended Validation Certificates" (EV Guidelines). -- MOTION BEGINS -- Ballot Section 1 BR 4.2.1 is amended to read as follows: [Ballot amendments shown against BR 4.2.1 as it currently exists without the changes adopted in Ballot 193] BR 4.2.1. Performing Identification and Authentication Functions The certificate request MAY include all factual information about the Applicant to be included in the Certificate, and such additional information as is necessary for the CA to obtain from the Applicant in order to comply with these Requirements and the CA’s Certificate Policy and/or Certification Practice Statement. In cases where the certificate request does not contain all the necessary information about the Applicant, the CA SHALL obtain the remaining information from the Applicant or, having obtained it from a reliable, independent, third‐party data source, confirm it with the Applicant. The CA SHALL establish and follow a documented procedure for verifying all data requested for inclusion in the Certificate by the Applicant. Applicant information MUST include, but not be limited to, at least one Fully‐Qualified Domain Name or IP address to be included in the Certificate’s SubjectAltName extension. Section 6.3.2 limits the validity period of Subscriber Certificates. The CA MAY use the documents and data provided in Section 3.2 to verify certificate information, provided that: the CA obtained the data or document from a source specified under Section 3.2 no more than thirty‐nine (39) months prior to issuing the Certificate. (1) Prior to March 1, 2018, the CA obtained the data or document from a source specified under Section 3.2 no more than 39 months prior to issuing the Certificate; and (2) On or after March 1, 2018, the CA obtained the data or document from a source specified under Section 3.2 no more than 825 days prior to issuing the Certificate. The CA SHALL develop, maintain, and implement documented procedures that identify and require additional verification activity for High Risk Certificate Requests prior to the Certificate’s approval, as reasonably necessary to ensure that such requests are properly verified under these Requirements. If a Delegated Third Party fulfills any of the CA’s obligations under this section, the CA SHALL verify that the process used by the Delegated Third Party to identify and further verify High Risk Certificate Requests provides at least the same level of assurance as the CA’s own processes. [Ballot amendments shown against BR 4.2.1 as it existed after Ballot 193 was approved] BR 4.2.1. Performing Identification and Authentication Functions The certificate request MAY include all factual information about the Applicant to be included in the Certificate, and such additional information as is necessary for the CA to obtain from the Applicant in order to comply with these Requirements and the CA’s Certificate Policy and/or Certification Practice Statement. In cases where the certificate request does not contain all the necessary information about the Applicant, the CA SHALL obtain the remaining information from the Applicant or, having obtained it from a reliable, independent, third‐party data source, confirm it with the Applicant. The CA SHALL establish and follow a documented procedure for verifying all data requested for inclusion in the Certificate by the Applicant. Applicant information MUST include, but not be limited to, at least one Fully‐Qualified Domain Name or IP address to be included in the Certificate’s SubjectAltName extension. Section 6.3.2 limits the validity period of Subscriber Certificates. The CA MAY use the documents and data provided in Section 3.2 to verify certificate information, provided that: the CA obtained the data or document from a source specified under Section 3.2 no more than 825 days prior to issuing the Certificate. (1) Prior to March 1, 2018, the CA obtained the data or document from a source specified under Section 3.2 no more than 39 months prior to issuing the Certificate; and (2) On or after March 1, 2018, the CA obtained the data or document from a source specified under Section 3.2 no more than 825 days prior to issuing the Certificate. The CA SHALL develop, maintain, and implement documented procedures that identify and require additional verification activity for High Risk Certificate Requests prior to the Certificate’s approval, as reasonably necessary to ensure that such requests are properly verified under these Requirements. If a Delegated Third Party fulfills any of the CA’s obligations under this section, the CA SHALL verify that the process used by the Delegated Third Party to identify and further verify High Risk Certificate Requests provides at least the same level of assurance as the CA’s own processes. Ballot Section 2 The provisions of Ballot Section 1 will be effective retroactive to the effective date of Ballot 193. --Motion Ends-- The procedure for approval of this Final Maintenance Guideline ballot is as follows (exact start and end times may be adjusted to comply with applicable Bylaws and IPR Agreement): BALLOT 194 Status: Final Maintenance Guideline Start time (22:00 UTC) End time (22:00 UTC) Discussion (7 to 14 days) April 2, 2017 April 9, 2017 Vote for approval (7 days) April 9, 2017 April 16, 2017 If vote approves ballot: Review Period (Chair to send Review Notice) (30 days). If Exclusion Notice(s) filed, ballot approval is rescinded and PAG to be created. If no Exclusion Notices filed, ballot becomes effective at end of Review Period. Upon filing of Review Notice by Chair 30 days after filing of Review Notice by Chair From Bylaw 2.3: If the Draft Guideline Ballot is proposing a Final Maintenance Guideline, such ballot will include a redline or comparison showing the set of changes from the Final Guideline section(s) intended to become a Final Maintenance Guideline, and need not include a copy of the full set of guidelines. Such redline or comparison shall be made against the Final Guideline section(s) as they exist at the time a ballot is proposed, and need not take into consideration other ballots that may be proposed subsequently, except as provided in Bylaw Section 2.3(j). Votes must be cast by posting an on-list reply to this thread on the Public list. A vote in favor of the motion must indicate a clear 'yes' in the response. A vote against must indicate a clear 'no' in the response. A vote to abstain must indicate a clear 'abstain' in the response. Unclear responses will not be counted. The latest vote received from any representative of a voting member before the close of the voting period will be counted. Voting members are listed here: https://cabforum.org/members/<https://clicktime.symantec.com/a/1/3F2C3_CmzkV4pRhju9lI0Fep81pZqBP4xS7SAGixEIQ=?d=TiDl1AKJt8Wf2jv4sHYv9voZ0WT72fB3UNhXfspVL1bwhOltPlXyEZUzNcKDDRylxmIZ1STfRCNMque7hAqy8O5CyETYjT7pckT1XkHOuoiTw9ag2YvyUuFuId0cuOCWDb8kaxnWlG91XC_ErQYhMRVfEiXs6-b1rBeRrjClBwkjucIpgjJ2PzVDQNW-haYrs9WNU6PUTHIQpJ9ujFFl-8v4Wnc0XbdKvIIsdoxudVbQONNRCAEc8snLTcBLjKbwA56Irhz4RG_HvGH4XQVLd8HdPoMP5eZ1nsVbSPGsEtghpYbH_ljPHoUhrFsZ5wVxzv8IqsmLYk9gvVg0ExQzbYb5DHRUrNKJWVLDBU1SRAcOhnQ036GGsASxkmRtXYncKKop7r-PtWgWzwqVWPWUnvD31lv9aUUGZXwuJVxDaG7zkKojRHaiEA9rxdas0sFJ15yZkuOU47NH-CCqrzmzmiDUcr35Lft0d-c%3D&u=https%3A%2F%2Fcabforum.org%2Fmembers%2F> In order for the motion to be adopted, two thirds or more of the votes cast by members in the CA category and greater than 50% of the votes cast by members in the browser category must be in favor. Quorum is shown on CA/Browser Forum wiki. 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