Hahahaha, great the Monty Python comparison!
I understand both sides of view, and don't see why they couldn't
coexist. But I tend to support FSF in this matter, I know there are many
incoherences but also think that great part of GNU/Linux success is due to
GNU's and FSF's radical approach. It's really problematic that the biggest
majority of Linux users don't mind using closed drivers, for example.
Actually I'm using right now a proprietary nvidia driver cause I can't
afford a new card, but that indeed disturbs me and I'm sure next card will
be either a AMD or (if it comes true) Intel one. And I dropped Sun's Java in
favor of OpenJDK, which works pretty well with SuperCollider. Anyway, I
think it's important to discuss this once in a while...
Ricardo
2009/4/2 Aymeric Mansoux <[email protected]>
> Rob Myers said :
> > 2009/4/2 Javier Garcia <[email protected]>:
> > >
> > > there is a list here of linux distros that FSF recommends and qualified
> as
> > > enterely free.
> > >
> > > If puredyne is completely free it should be added, dont you think?
> >
> > It would be great if pure:dyne was completely free. Whether it is or
> > not depends on which parts of Debian pure:dyne uses.
>
> Well...
>
> Looking at the list of officialy supported free OS, I wonder how they
> do it, or if everything was carefully checked before they got listed.
>
> For example, I suppose they have absolutely no non-free firmware?
> so that means none of these distros have the firmware from the Alsa
> project? or no non-free firmware for x or y hardware? Do all the
> software they bundle is released under a free license? Does it take
> other point of view on free software (re infamous DFSG vs GFDL) into
> account? I also suppose they all use the linux-libre kernel? Or is the
> kernel the exception for being listed as free OS? What about the
> artwork, fonts, etc, do they provide free license information for every
> single bits of non-software parts?
>
> Also, I read:
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html
> "What would be unacceptable is for the documentation to give people
> instructions for installing a nonfree program on the system, or mention
> conveniences they might gain by doing so."
>
> So breaking that rules means you are not providing a free OS I suppose.
>
> That means none of these projects are actually explaining their users
> in their documentation (is wiki documentation? mailing list? IRC logs?)
> how to make their graphic card work using binary blobs, nor explain how
> to make their Linux supported hardware work when it relies on non-free
> firmware or microcode? (which by looking at the libre deblob script...
> are quite numerous!)
>
> What happens when someone has, say an old ATI, that is now not supported
> anymore by the company, but has, thanks to AMD and X.Org, a free driver
> that provides a "good enough" support for most basic features? This free
> driver will not work fully anymore, because the microcode it needs, that
> was provided so far by the kernel, is not not shipped in those free OS
> (apparently) and there will be no documentation for the user on how to
> use his old card with a free driver because it would not be a free OS
> then?
>
> What about the recycling of old machines that relies heavily on kernel
> drivers (microcode and firmware included) because the hardware has been
> long gone unsupported by their original producers? (when they still
> exist).
> Only a few old models will pass the free system test. What kind of
> machines would be OK then? There are tons of left over and wasted
> hardware lying everywhere that can be used to be good enough multimedia
> systems but I suppose some will never be able to run a truly free system
> then? (unless free firmware and microcode get written which is not
> necesseraly going to happen anytime soon).
>
> Of course the FSF is listing recommended hardware for free systems, and
> that's helping a lot when you're shopping (if you don't know this link
> bookmark it, and contribute to it if you can).
> http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw
>
> ... but at the same time, they can send mixed messages. While reading
> through their hardware recommandations, I just see now:
> http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/systems
>
> "As video card we recommend something made by ATI, because AMD (ATI's
> parent company) has been releasing detailed specifications for a host of
> ATI cards. This has made possible the development of a free software
> driver that can do 3D as well as 2D. This driver is called 'radeon'
> http://wiki.x.org/wiki/radeon, and it has 2D and 3D support for ATI
> cards of the R100, R200, R300 and R400 series."
>
> but these cards won't work completely because in a libre kernel the
> microcode to make the acceleration possible has been removed...
> http://www.fsfla.org/svn/fsfla/software/linux-libre/scripts/deblob-2.6.29
> ... and there are still no free alternatives.
>
> and making it work without seems rather difficult if not impossible
> http://wiki.gnewsense.org/ForumMain/AQuestionForSomeoneWithARadeon7500
>
> Similarly, there are computer dealers that are selling hardware with
> gNewSense preinstalled, like: http://laclinux.com/ (I pick this one
> because apparently they give some of the sales money back to the FSF).
> But then how does such hardware work? For example the IWL firmware for
> the wireless is gone from the libre kernel, so you get a half working
> machine in the end? Is it a good demonstration of free software in the
> end? or could it be that in the end everyone put some blobs back in
> their system to make it work?.... of course all undocumented and in
> secret... ;)
>
> While I see the point the FSF is trying to make with this free system
> guideline and while I absolutely respect completely everyone who is
> actually trying to make this a reality beyond a simple "proof of
> concept" (in the end it would save a lot of headache to have proper free
> systems and the hardware that goes with it), I find it still very hard
> to make it practical in real life situation...
>
> and to conclude:
>
> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2005/04/11/debian-the-fsf-the-gfdl-and-kernel-firmware/
>
>
> a.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> [email protected]
> irc.goto10.org #pure:dyne
>
---
[email protected]
irc.goto10.org #pure:dyne
