Hi Karsten!
I understand your points, and again, I'm just an user and don't want
to criticize pure:dyne's decisions, I know that this switch may work very
well, I was just thinking it would bring some problems. I don't think debian
is a pain to configure, actually, all the changes I make to it would be the
same I would do to a plain Ubuntu install (configure
/etc/security/limits.conf, compile rt kernel etc.). With wicd on the
backports server even wireless works like a charm. About the mixing repos
stuff, maybe I didn't express myself clearly, I never mix binary repos, only
source ones. I simply grab sid's source doing, for example, an "apt-get -t
unstable source jackd" and compile it with "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b
-us -uc" (in this particular case I need to compile ffado the same way).
I've never had any problems with that. But mixing binary repos is indeed is
problematic.
About Ubuntu being more user-friendly, that is true (when it works).
But if pure:dyne will be built upon a minimal install, the work needed to
get an user-friendly system would be similar to what I suppose a simple
debian install demands.
You are right about ubuntu's release circle, every six months they
release a newer version (I think the feature freeze takes place 2 months
before that, I'm not sure). After that there are only security updates, but
much more in comparison to debian stable's updates.
Anyway, I wish this wonderful project luck with this switch,
pure:dyne remains the only distro geared towards audio work that I recommend
to a newcomer without hesitation (I always have at my university a liveDVD
from pure:dyne with me to show others linux audio stuff). But I'll keep
using and installing debian on my computers and from others interested on
linux audio, as a main (installed) system it's the only one I really trust.
Best regards!
Ricardo
PS: Karsten, you were the maintainer from puredyne's supercollider
package, right? Do you have any good docs explaining how to create good
debian packages from apps built with scons? I build very simple ones here,
but would like to learn building them the right way, and Debian's
documentation talks more about "make" stuff. If you have any tips please pm
me, I'd be thankful.
2009/9/10 Karsten Gebbert <[email protected]>
> Ricardo . said :
> > I would like to contribute again to this interesting
> discussion. I
> > understand that the problem with Ubuntu isn't it's bloatness, one can
> handle
> > that doing, like you said, a minimal install. And I think that, if it's
> going
> > to save you work and you achieve to deliver a stable and
> performance-oriented
> > system, it can be indeed a clever way to go. I, however, don't like
> Ubuntu's
> > release cycle, like I mentioned earlier, I feel much more comfortable
> having a
> > solid base system and install newer versions from packages I want (mainly
> SC3,
> > Ardour, Jack and a rt-kernel), than having to upgrade everything quite
> often. I
> > think there are 2 main reasons why people that do audio work (and people
> in
> > general too) switch to Linux: it's free (and this has both economical and
> > political/ideological points) and it's stable. So, I really can't
> recommend one
> > to install in his system something like UbuntuStudio that comes with a
> crappy
> > rt-kernel or buggy Intel Graphics Drivers (this one applys to plain
> Ubuntu as
> > well), just to mention some problems that plagues distros released in a
> rush.
> > Debian, well configured, is a damn good Desktop system, doesn't crash,
> has well
> > build backported packages, offers Testing and Unstable repositores from
> which
> > one can grab sources and backport apps etc. What I think would be awesome
> (and
> > I'm doing my homework here learning bash scripting and debian packaging
> so I
> > can help with this task) would be to have something like an
> audio-backports or
> > multimedia-backports for debian stable, with all those cool stuff we
> enjoy
> > (since backports.org is only meant for popular packages, a status that
> our
> > beloved supercollider, for example, hasn't achieved yet). But that's
> something
> > for another project, I'm considering contacting people at
> debian-multimedia
> > etc. to see what can be done here (as soon as I feel confortable in
> packaging
> > apps for debian).
> > Coming back to the Ubuntu discussion, on which version will
> next
> > pure:dyne be based? How will you handle, for example, this intel graphics
> > problem?
> >
>
> Ok - yes, the accelerated release cycle brings not only joy, but also
> problems, as you mention. the intel graphics card issue is, afaics not
> an issue anymore in karmic. My graphics work *a lot* better now than
> with older xorg version :). That said, its very true that, especially
> with jaunty, there were a lot of problems with buggy drivers and so
> on. We will not use rt-kernel provided by UbuntuStudio, so there is
> not really going to be a problem from that side either.
>
> The problem in my opinion lies in the detail here. You say that Debian
> 'well configured' is a good starting point for a solid install... well,
> thats true, but consider that its not really within everybodies
> abilities to configure stuff, so its down to provide sane
> defaults. This is what Ubuntu does in a lot of ways, obviously not
> always as success but hey..
> Now, to your second point: mixing distros (stable,testing,unstable) in
> Debian with backporting is a quite a tricky business, since it breaks
> quite easily, especially when you have to do pinning for specific
> packages. Aymeric will know more about the specifics, but as far as I
> know it was really a nightmare to maintain. The release cycle of
> Ubuntu on the other side suits our 'personal cycles' more much more,
> in that its a half-year release cycle (right?) which becomes stable
> and only security updates are made (I think... please tell me if I'm
> wrong here).
>
>
> > Ricardo
> >
> > 2009/9/10 Karsten Gebbert <[email protected]>
> >
> > Arif Driessen said :
> > >
> > > main point is that *if* you feel you can handle purdyne based
> on
> > > Debian - you can definitely handle puredyne based on ubuntu.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well I happen to be sceptical of a move to ubuntu. As soon as you
> move to
> > > ubuntu, I no longer have a need for pure:dyne as I myself could
> easially
> > > install my particular flavour of ubuntu (as i no doubt will not be
> > entirely
> > > satisfied with your choices) and plonk my media apps and realtime
> patch
> > on top.
> > >
> >
> > I don't quite understand this. Ubuntu is a snapshot of Debian sid
> plus
> > patches/improvements meaning that if you can do this with Ubuntu you
> > can do it just as well with Debian. The thing is not that experienced
> > users can do this sort of thing themselves - we all know that :) -
> but
> > we put this together for people that can't do it themselves, or don't
> > want to or simply don't have the time.
> >
> > > Besides, I thoght p:d was all about lightweight-ness, something
> which
> > ubuntu is
> > > not about. if there are actually some solid reasons for why you
> would
> > want to
> > > move to ubuntu (which I'm sure there'll only be a few) then why not
> add
> > them to
> > > your debian distro rather than the other way around (starting with
> ubuntu
> > and
> > > cutting your way around thick and fog)
> >
> > Lightweirght-ness is not something that is impossible to achieve with
> > Ubuntu. In fact, if you start from a minimal install and install only
> > the stuffs needed you end up with a snappy minimal system, just like
> > you had before. As said above: a lot of the packages *are* the same
> as
> > in Debian, yes, with slighly different defaults, and definitely more
> > recent versions, but.... its Debian-based and is thus just as
> > customisable as its parent distro.
> >
> > > Here would constitute a great reason for an update to p:d...
> > >
> > > * Remove XFCE, move to Lxde
> > > * Get firefox 3.5 in there (it is way faster)
> > > * Remove all gnome dependencies including...
> > > * Remove Gnome Desktop Manager, replace with SLiM
> > > * Add the ubuntu installer app, that will easially handle turning
> your
> > live
> > > distro into a non-live HD based 'normal' OS
> >
> > The point you're raising is something that in fact we have thought
> > very carefully about. Backporting packages is not a big deal in
> > itself, but in the long run requires a *massive* amount of
> > maintainance work. Just think about it: a team of.. say 6-7 maybe 8
> or
> > 9 people having to maintain all the packages they create, plus on top
> > follow the release cycle of packages they have (but don't really
> want)
> > to maintain (I'm thinking of stuff like firefox, or XFCE or
> > whatnot). Not sure you know what that means, but its a massive amount
> > of work, if done properly. We just don't have the resources to do
> that
> > at this point and it seems really like a bad idea to duplicate all
> > that work when its already being done by Ubuntu maintainers.
> >
> > I think the point should be raised again that one of the main
> > advantages of Ubuntu is that its *because* its a Desktop-oriented
> > distro (which is what most of people who do music/art/media stuffs
> use
> > it as ;) its suited much better to our needs than Debian. Debian will
> > most probably more and more become a distro for servers and
> > applications like that, where stability is more important than the
> > length of new-features list.
> >
> > Finally, I think it needs to be said that, yes, we should think about
> > using LXDE + pcmanfm (which I think is great btw) and try to keep it
> > simple and lightweight on the Desktop end, but the prejeduice you're
> > raising about "Ubuntu-based" == "bloated" is IMHO non-sense.
> > If you still like, you could help us keeping puredyne simple and
> > lightweight by, for instance, making a ticket with the
> recommendations
> > you make towards improving memory/cpu footprint, startup time or
> > create a Debian package for SLiM (which looks cool btw).
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> >
> > -- karsten gebbert
> > -- krgn.goto10.org
> >
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> >
> > ---
> > [email protected]
> > irc.goto10.org #puredyne
> >
> >
>
> > ---
> > [email protected]
> > irc.goto10.org #puredyne
>
>
>
> -- karsten gebbert
> -- krgn.goto10.org
>
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>
> ---
> [email protected]
> irc.goto10.org #puredyne
>
---
[email protected]
irc.goto10.org #puredyne
