On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski <fij...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 10:08 PM, John Camara <john.m.cam...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> What makes you think people will even read this warning, let alone >>> prioritize it over their immediate desire to make their program run >>> faster? >> >>> (Not that I am objecting to adding the warning, but I think you might be >>> fooling yourself if you think it will have any impact) >> >>> Jean-Paul >> >> I agree with you and was not being naive and thinking this alone was going >> to solve the problem but it does gives us something to point to when we see >> someone abusing the jitviewer. >> >> Maybe, a more effective approach, is not to advertise about the jitviewer to >> everyone who has performance issues and only tell those who are experience >> programmers who have already done the obvious in fixing any design issues >> that had existed in their code. Having inexperience developers use the >> normal profiling tools will still help them find the hot spots in their code >> and help prevent them from picking up habits that lead them to writing >> un-Pythonic code. >> >> I'm sure we all agree that code with a better design will run faster in pypy >> than trying to add optimizations that work only for pypy to help out a poor >> design. >> >> I don't think we want to end up with a lot of Python code that looks like C >> code. This is what happens when the inexperience start relying on the >> jitviewer. >> >> For instance take a look at this code [1] and blog [2] which lead me to post >> this. This is not the first example I have come across this issue and >> unfortunately it appears to be increaseing at an alarming rate. >> >> I guess I feel we have a responsibility to try to promote good programming >> practices when we can. >> >> [1] - >> https://github.com/msgpack/msgpack-python/blob/master/msgpack/fallback.py >> >> [2] - http://blog.affien.com/archives/2013/01/29/msgpack-for-pypy/ >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:39 PM, John Camara <john.m.cam...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> I have been noticing a pattern where many who are writing Python code to >>> run on PyPy are relying more and more on using the jitviewer to help them >>> write faster code. Unfortunately, many of them who do so don't look at >>> improving the design of their code as a way to improve the speed at which it >>> will run under PyPy but instead start writing obscure Python code that >>> happens to run faster under PyPy. >>> >>> I know that at least with the PyPy core developers they would like to see >>> every one just create good clean Python code and that often code that has >>> been made into obscure Python was don so to try to optimize it for CPython >>> which in many cases causes it to run slower on PyPy than it would run it the >>> code just followed typical Python idioms. >>> >>> I feel that a normal developer should be using tools like cProfiler and >>> runsnakerun and cleaning up design issues way before they should even >>> consider using jitviewer. >>> >>> In a recent case where I saw someone using the jitviewer who likely >>> doesn't need to use it. At least they don't need to use it considering the >>> current design of the code I said the following >>> >>> "The jitviewer should be mainly used by PyPy core developers and those >>> building PyPy VMs. A normal developer writing Python code to run on PyPy >>> shouldn’t have a need to use it. They can use it to point out an >>> inefficiency that PyPy has to the core developers but it should not be used >>> as a way to get you to write Python code in a way that has a better chance >>> of being optimized under PyPy except for very rare occasions and even then >>> it should only be made by those who follow closely and understand PyPy’s >>> development." >>> >>> >>> Do others here share this same opinion and should some warning be added to >>> the jitviewer? >>> >>> John >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pypy-dev mailing list >> pypy-dev@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev >> > > Hi John. > > I don't believe jitviewer is advertised really in that many places. We > tell people who come to IRC, yes, but that's about it (it's not > prominently featured on pypy.org for example). It's hard enough to > make people read docs.
Also, looking at the msgpack - this code is maybe not ideal, but if you're dealing with buffer-level protocols, you end up with code looking like C a lot. _______________________________________________ pypy-dev mailing list pypy-dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
